Commercial Manuevers

[Apollo]

Hey guys I'm getting ready to start prepping for the practical portion of the commercial (and CFI) checkrides. I really want to do all of them in an m20c as I've got more hours in that than any other airplane.

 

 

Anybody do the commercial in a mooney and have any tips on speeds, manuevering speeds, mooney tricks, RPMs and MP settings or the like that'll make nailing these a cinch?

 

 

 

[jlunseth]

I am working on my commercial in my M20K.  Not sure the speeds would be the same, and the RPMs and MP would not be.  These depend on the maneuver anyway.

 

All the maneuvers per the PTS must be at or below maneuvering speed, which is 119 kts. in my aircraft.  For the 8's on pylons, there is a "pivotal altitude" that you establish with a formula that includes speed.  The formula is V²/11.3=Alt. So for a V of 100 kts, that would be 10000/11.3=884' AGL.  If ground level is 1,000, that would be 1,884, say 1900 MSL.  You can pick whatever speed you are comfortable with, use the corresponding pivotal altitude, as long as you do not exceed maneuvering speed (Vna).  The one trick that I have learned is pylon picking.  You do most of a circle around the first pylon, then go wings level for 3-5 seconds and start the circle around the second pylon.  First, it works best to wait until pylon 1 is immediately abeam your wing and then do an immediate bank to execute the circle, rather than slowly putting in the bank, or starting the bank before the pylon.  Then it is best to do your circle, do you wings level for 3-5, and then use as a pylon whatever is immediately under your wing.  It is a mess trying to guess ahead of time what two points will be 3-5 seconds apart.

 

For the chandelles, you start at or below maneuvering speed, and then put in full power when you start the pitch up.  I am told that for high performance aircraft, 65% HP is acceptable but you learn more at 100%.

 

For Lazy 8's, you start the maneuver at maneuvering speed, do your bank and turn, and then when the plane comes down again the PTS says you are supposed to hit the speed you started at.  Good luck with that, it is the one thing I am having a hard time with.  The Mooney is very slick and likes to pick up speed coming down, so I am finding it very hard not to change the power setting and hit maneuvering at the bottom of the 8's.

 

For the steep turn, pick whatever speed you like that is under maneuvering, I don't find the steep turn very difficult even at 50 degrees of bank.

[Bennett]

All I can add is that the Commercial Steep Spiral can save your life. Ask your instructor to illustrate a maximum descent with minimum forward speed and a 60 degree bank. I've used it in an

emergency from the flight levels (FL 230) with gear down, full flaps, speed brakes out, 55-60 degrees of bank, and about 90-95 KIAS. Came down (by time, VSI didn't read that high)at about

3000 feet per minute with full control. On my last turn I rolled out, brought the nose up to lose some speed and landed at the selected airport. Of course you have to slow to gear, and then

flap speed, but you will probably do all your Commercial maneuvers at a bit below Va, so reducing speed further should not be difficult. Yes, the PTS only requires two 360s (around a point),

but taking an aircraft down safely from altitude, without excessive forward speed can be tricky. It takes concentration to do this correctly as stall speed picks up dramatically with bank

angle, but if you can control that angle, and hold your speed within reasonable limits, this is a great way to get down in a hurry. I do most strongly suggest that you do not try this

yourself before training with a good instructor. Before I used it, I could never understand why this maneuver (even limited to two 360 degree turns)was included in the PTS. Now I am convinced how important this maneuver can be.

[Mike A]

I am working on my commercial in my M20K.  Not sure the speeds would be the same, and the RPMs and MP would not be.  These depend on the maneuver anyway.

 

All the maneuvers per the PTS must be at or below maneuvering speed, which is 119 kts. in my aircraft.  For the 8's on pylons, there is a "pivotal altitude" that you establish with a formula that includes speed.  The formula is V²/11.7=Alt. So for a V of 100 kts, that would be 10000/11.3=884' AGL.  If ground level is 1,000, that would be 1,884, say 1900 MSL.  You can pick whatever speed you are comfortable with, use the corresponding pivotal altitude, as long as you do not exceed maneuvering speed (Vna).  The one trick that I have learned is pylon picking.  You do most of a circle around the first pylon, then go wings level for 3-5 seconds and start the circle around the second pylon.  First, it works best to wait until pylon 1 is immediately abeam your wing and then do an immediate bank to execute the circle, rather than slowly putting in the bank, or starting the bank before the pylon.  Then it is best to do your circle, do you wings level for 3-5, and then use as a pylon whatever is immediately under your wing.  It is a mess trying to guess ahead of time what two points will be 3-5 seconds apart.

 

For the chandelles, you start at or below maneuvering speed, and then put in full power when you start the pitch up.  I am told that for high performance aircraft, 65% HP is acceptable but you learn more at 100%.

 

For Lazy 8's, you start the maneuver at maneuvering speed, do your bank and turn, and then when the plane comes down again the PTS says you are supposed to hit the speed you started at.  Good luck with that, it is the one thing I am having a hard time with.  The Mooney is very slick and likes to pick up speed coming down, so I am finding it very hard not to change the power setting and hit maneuvering at the bottom of the 8's.

 

For the steep turn, pick whatever speed you like that is under maneuvering, I don't find the steep turn very difficult even at 50 degrees of bank.

I am about to start my commercial in my 231. If you have good reference RPMs and MPs, I'd like to hear them.

[Bennett]

In the situation I related above, and which you quoted, I had a windmilling prop and ambient MP, so can't be of help here.

[jlunseth]

I am about to start my commercial in my 231. If you have good reference RPMs and MPs, I'd like to hear them.

 

Does yours have an intercooler?  If not, the MPs are going to be different.  I don't use any special RPMs. I generally use 2700 for climb and 2450 for cruise in a regular point A to point B trip, and the same RPM's work for maneuvers.  I use full power for the chandelles and that requires 2700.  I have a JPI 930 so rather than use MP, I put in whatever throttle it takes to get to 100% power or close to it.  The MP that produces 100% varies depending on OAT or IAT, don't know which because JPI does not publish the algorithm.  For the maneuvers that require starting at maneuvering speed, I use 2450 RPM's plus whatever MP it takes to get 120 kts (close to 119).  Same for steep turns except I like to do them at 110, so I use 2450 RPM's and whatever MP yields 110 kts. Same for  8's on pylons.  I am not doing the steep spirals that Bennett is talking about right now because it is too cold here, don't want to hurt the engine, so I can't help with that. 

[johnggreen]

Apollo,

 

I see no reason that a M20 won't be fine for the commercial maneuvers with one codicil; finding the correct speeds for each maneuver.  I found jlunseth's comments interesting as to lazy 8's.  Many years ago, when I was getting ready for my commercial, I rented a Piper Arrow for the purpose.  I flew with an instructor (obviously) prepping for the maneuvers and followed her recommendations for speed.  Everything worked fine except the Lazy 8's;  I/we simply couldn't do them within PTS standards of control.  She even tried and couldn't even do as well as me.  The next day, I took the Arrow up by myself and for an hour worked on nothing but Lazy 8's.  Finally, I figured that perhaps the instructor and the manual were wrong about entry speeds.  I don't remember the details, but I started making small changes and after about the fifth try hit it on the head.  From that point on, the Arrow did lazy 8's like it was riding on rails.

 

Do the same with the Mooney, especially with the Mooney since its clean airframe will demand even more precise speed control.  Vary your speeds on all maneuvers until you fine the perfect speeds AT THE WEIGHT YOU WILL BE TAKING THE CHECK RIDE.

 

As I read in a quote from Bob Hoover once, "the secret of good pilotage is speed control".

 

Good luck.

 

Jgreen

[Bennett]

By the way, I flew my Commercial check ride in my 261. Too many years ago to remember the various MPs and RPMs. I do recall that the M20K was a great airplane for performing all the maneuvers, and that I learned a great deal about control. Enjoy the experience.

[Apollo]

Okay 3 lessons later, and JohngGreen was absolutely right. Getting the right entrance airspeed is the whole ballgame.

 

Max Manuevering Speed in the M20C is 132MPH.

 

Chandelles - I start with an Entry speed of 120MPH. Seems to work out well and I end up at 75MPH constantly. This is a max perf manuever so full throttle full RPM.

 

Eights on Pylons - I enjoy using 18IN MP and 24RPM throttle on this manuever. Keeps me hovering around 110-120MPH depending on the day.

 

Lazy Eights - This one is tough. I think I sitll might be entering this one too fast. I've been doing the start speeds at 120MPH. I am considering slowing down the start speed to 110MPH, but as we all know, thats practically impossible in a M20C

[Apollo]

FYI a guy named Immelman posted this in 2010. Could be useful here.

 

 

Jason,

I recently obtained my CFI ticket in my mooney so I had to go through all of the commercial maneuvers and get used to demonstrating them. The magic power ticket is a setting that will put you a little below Va in straight and level cruise. Of course, Va varies with weight. For my airplane that worked out to be about 125mph IAS with 2 people and full fuel.

Lazy 8: set power for approx 120mph in straight and level cruise. This happened to be somewhere between 17-18"/2500 (ROP) for me. It will vary with altitude and weight. Use an inch less power or so solo. Remember to "pitch pitch pitch bank" and let the decrease in airspeed changes drive the heading change... it may sound cliche but properly flown the airplane almost drives itself, with you 'seeding' just a smidge of initial bank and of course the pitch force... heck I would try to just get a nibble of buffet or even stall horn at the maximum pitch point (without stalling of course).

Steep turns: Same thing, just add a little power (1-2") on roll in. It doesn't take much of a power increase to hold airspeed/altitude in a 50-55 degree banked turn in our airplanes.

Chandelle: Same thing on entry, but then go to a good 65-70% power setting for the climb. (23"/2500 or so). As an editorial comment, I don't recommend going to full power for the chandelle. You can of course, but be careful. Same for power on stall work. The reason I say this is that there is uncomfortably little (if any) rudder authority left to maintain coordination at the completion of the maneuver with high power settings, at least in my 66E. Rudder size is a mooney weakness IMHO.

8's on: slightly slower, as the common practice is enter down-wind meaning you'll be descending when you start out. However, power changes are expected (and necessary in any kind of breeze) throughout the maneuver.

Steep spirals and power off 180s have the most simple power setting of all. On the steep spiral, one thing I found was that I needed to agresively lean to avoid unburnt fuel burning in the exhaust stack... put a different way with mixture rich and power to idle, the mixture is extremely rich. Also, the steep spiral can chew up a lot of altitude. One thing to experiment with to reduce the descent rate (and thus reduce the climinb you have to do to practice it) would be to go ahead and bring the prop back to course pitch which will reduce your descent rate substantially. Of course this has to be carefully managed when you 'clear' the engine once around and at the termination of the maneuver.

These maneuvers (except chandelle) can of course be flown LOP also. I did a lot of practice like that. However, I would get a stuble once in a while LOP with changing power settings and decided to use ROP mixture for the checkride and final prep just to remove that as a point of contention.

[carusoam]

Have you tried using CloudAhoy app as a flight recorder?

It does a nice job recording and grading the various maneuvers automatically after you simply press the start button...

iPad with GPS or similar required.

Best regards,

-a-

[Apollo]

Actually I got it all set up but completely forgot about using it.

 

I'll try it tomorrow morning.

[carusoam]

I found it recorded some interesting things on a basic training flight last year. It should be really nice for advanced maneuvers...

I was simply impressed at how nicely my plane executed steep turns and CA drew the flight out over google earth and filled in details...

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

I still have yet to do the accelerated stalls in my Mooney. How do those work out for you guys? They added it to the commercial PTS last year. 

[Apollo]

They really aren't all that bad, but they are certainly different. Didn't realize that the mooney sure doesn't want to stall, ever. And when it does it tends to drop a wing just ever so slightly. Keep those ailerons neutral.

[SpamPilot]

I'm also inching towards my Commercial in my M20F.  One thing bothers me.  Steep turns, chandelles, and lazy eights (not to mention spins) are all aerobatic maneuvers.  The Mooney Type Certificate explicitly prohibits aerobatic maneuvers for every model of Mooney (see the "Notes Applicable to All Models" section of the TC, search for "aerobatic").  In comparison, aerobatic maneuvers in a Cherokee are only permitted "provided it is loaded within the approved weight and centre of gravity limits", and then "the approved manoeuvers are spins, steep turns, lazy eights, and chandelles." (ref. Piper Aircraft Corporation Service Bulletin No. 753)

 

How can we be in compliance with the FARs if we do these maneuvers in an aircraft for which they are prohibited?

 

My CFII did his Commercial checkride in a Mooney.  I assume he's not the only one.  "Everyone does it" does not prove it's legal.  "These maneuvers should be safe as long as you remain coordinated" is a reasonable response, though again it doesn't address legality, and is definitely not the same as "if you make a mistake, the aircraft can be recovered".

[Super Dave]

I'm also inching towards my Commercial in my M20F.  One thing bothers me.  Steep turns, chandelles, and lazy eights (not to mention spins) are all aerobatic maneuvers.  The Mooney Type Certificate explicitly prohibits aerobatic maneuvers for every model of Mooney (see the "Notes Applicable to All Models" section of the TC, search for "aerobatic").  In comparison, aerobatic maneuvers in a Cherokee are only permitted "provided it is loaded within the approved weight and centre of gravity limits", and then "the approved manoeuvers are spins, steep turns, lazy eights, and chandelles." (ref. Piper Aircraft Corporation Service Bulletin No. 753)

 

How can we be in compliance with the FARs if we do these maneuvers in an aircraft for which they are prohibited?

 

My CFII did his Commercial checkride in a Mooney.  I assume he's not the only one.  "Everyone does it" does not prove it's legal.  "These maneuvers should be safe as long as you remain coordinated" is a reasonable response, though again it doesn't address legality, and is definitely not the same as "if you make a mistake, the aircraft can be recovered".

The commercial maneuvers are not considered aerobatic.

[Lrn2Fly]

In the C, E, F, and J models, I teach my commercial and CFI candidates to use 2400 RPM and 20" MP as their base line power setting.  This is true for the steep turns, lazy eights, eights on pylons, and accelerated stalls.  The nice thing about this setting is you won't accelerate as fast, so speed control is easier, but still plenty of power available.  For Chandelles and departure stalls, use 2500 rpm / 25".  Full power is also OK, but it guves you a very high deck angle and is more difficult to chirp the stall horn at the very end.  For steep spiral, use 2400 rpm and 15" MP.

[N9453V]

Hey guys I'm getting ready to start prepping for the practical portion of the commercial (and CFI) checkrides. I really want to do all of them in an m20c as I've got more hours in that than any other airplane.

 

 

Anybody do the commercial in a mooney and have any tips on speeds, manuevering speeds, mooney tricks, RPMs and MP settings or the like that'll make nailing these a cinch?

 

I did my Commercial in my G model... I don't remember the exact power settings I used for the maneuvers, but it was a great airplane to use, the only challenge was the power-off 180's. For the power-off 180's, I used 70-75 kts as my final approach speed with full flaps and slipped as necessary. For short field landings, I used full flaps and 65 knots.

 

-Andrew

[rob]

In the C, E, F, and J models, I teach my commercial and CFI candidates to use 2400 RPM and 20" MP as their base line power setting. This is true for the steep turns, lazy eights, eights on pylons, and accelerated stalls. The nice thing about this setting is you won't accelerate as fast, so speed control is easier, but still plenty of power available. For Chandelles and departure stalls, use 2500 rpm / 25". Full power is also OK, but it guves you a very high deck angle and is more difficult to chirp the stall horn at the very end. For steep spiral, use 2400 rpm and 15" MP.

I found 2400x20 to be a good setting in my commercial work in my M20C.

Another thing I found interesting was that my examiner, after I successfully demonstrated 8s on pylons suggested that I change the "focal point" to actually be slightly in front of the leading edge of the wing. It made the maneuver much easier. He then demonstrated and gave me back the controls. It made the maneuver much easier.