Fuel Injector Cleaner?

[kmyfm20s]

Does anybody use it, recommend it or have found any benefit from it? I just put some in my Jeep and it really seemed to help out, it runs smoother. My Jeep tends to sit on and off for periods of time which my plane doesn't so it might not help out as much. This is more out of curiously than necessity.

[KSMooniac]

Not approved, or necessary, in our planes.  If you have clogged injectors, you need to remove them for cleaning.  100LL also won't deteriorate into gummy excrement like modern car gas either.

[carusoam]

Cleaning out the intake of small block Chevy, yes. Aviation, I'm following with Scott above.

The recycle of exhaust gases improves fuel mileage, but makes a terrible mess behind the butterfly valve.

Of course cleaning doesn't happen by just putting cleaner in a gas tank.

That's my opinion on small block chevy automotive engines...

Chances of cleaning the sealant out of your fuel tank is probably higher than you want.

Cleaning years of blue goo out of the intake tubes is a worthwhile effort if you have carburetor/M20C. Check with your mechanic before proceeding.

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

Good point on the sealant of the gas tanks and not being approved kind of wraps up this subject, thanks for the input!

[KSMooniac]

Another benefit of LOP ops for us with fuel injected engines is knowing that smooth LOP ops = clean and balanced fuel injectors and no induction leaks.  Any roughness indicates something wrong with fuel, air or spark.  If you run smoothly LOP, then by definition your injectors are clean and you can instruct your mechanic to leave them alone!  (APS and Busch say the #1 contaminant in fuel injectors is red shop rag lint from cleaning them!)

[kmyfm20s]

  On 2/8/2013 at 12:07 AM, KSMooniac said:

Another benefit of LOP ops for us with fuel injected engines is knowing that smooth LOP ops = clean and balanced fuel injectors and no induction leaks.  Any roughness indicates something wrong with fuel, air or spark.  If you run smoothly LOP, then by definition your injectors are clean and you can instruct your mechanic to leave them alone!  (APS and Busch say the #1 contaminant in fuel injectors is red shop rag lint from cleaning them!)

So far I have been very impressed with my smooth LOP operation. My plane doesn't get ruff, it simply will starve itself of gas. CHT and EGT drop very rapidly and evenly. I still need to figure out my GAMI spread but off hand it look pretty tight. Which is what got me thinking of Injector Cleaner for those that have a large Gami spread and ruff LOP operation.

[Alan Fox]

Fuel injection cleaner on cars doesnt really clean the injectors , as much as clean the backs of the intake valves...... That being said the injectors on cars are much more sophisticated than an aircraft , An aircraft injector is just a metering jet and should never get obstructed......

[RJBrown]

  On 2/7/2013 at 11:15 PM, carusoam said:

Cleaning out the intake of small block Chevy, yes. Aviation, I'm following with Scott above.

The recycle of exhaust gases improves fuel mileage, but makes a terrible mess behind the butterfly valve.

Of course cleaning doesn't happen by just putting cleaner in a gas tank.

That's my opinion on small block chevy automotive engines...

Chances of cleaning the sealant out of your fuel tank is probably higher than you want.

Cleaning years of blue goo out of the intake tubes is a worthwhile effort if you have carburetor/M20C. Check with your mechanic before proceeding.

Best regards,

-a-

EGR is not for fuel mileage. EGR is to reduce NOX emmisions. EGR is dirty like stated.

 Scott and others are right, do not use it in your plane.

[jetdriven]

RJ, doesnt the EGR effectively reduce the intake volume of the fuel charge by diluting it with exhaust gas? Wouldnt that effectively redude the CID of the engine, and less fuel comsumption as well?

[RJBrown]

EGR effectively reduces the compression ratio and in doing so lowers the exhaust temperature. High exhaust temps are where NOX comes from. The lowered "compression ratio" then makes the engine less efficient. EGR only operates at low throttle positions/ low power needs. The BPTV (back pressure transducer valve) in conjunction with other controls keeps the EGR valve closed when power is needed. Any chance that these changes improve fuel mileage seems dubious to me. No sure knowledge either way but to me seems counter intuitive. Nitrogen and oxygen do not combine at ambient temperatures. Between 1300 and 1400 degrees F NOX begins to form. The hotter it is the more NOX is formed. The 3 ways to limit NOX are 1 lower combustion temps by EGR and low comp ratio. This makes engines less efficient like early smog motors. 2 By using a 3-way catalytic converter. 3 eliminating oxygen from exhaust by using it up through tighter engine controls.

  I believe that #2 and #3 are part of why today's engines are more efficient and #1 is part why early smog motors were so inefficient. Engine technology has a learning curve that will continue to evolve as we learn more and demand more of our engines.

 The power loss from the 60s through the 70s was dramatic but the evolution to today's engines is dramatically different. Compare HP ratings of 350cu in Corvette engines over the years. Today's engines produce more power AND fuel efficiency. More power than the big block of yore and more efficiency than early small blocks.

It would be interesting to plot HP and MPG ratings for Corvettes from 1953 to 2013. 60 years of automotive evolution.

[Alan Fox]

Correction , EGR has no effect whatsoever on compression ratio......Egr is relative with power , Not active at Idle , higher volume of EGR at Higher power settings...It is used to control NOX emissions......Modern engines do not lose power from EGR as they advance the timing and change mixture to compensate for the diluted intake charge.......Quite the contrary , Modern engines get more power as a result of EGR because it reduces detonation allowing greater timing advance.....  Modern engines self diagnose a bad EGR by a knock sensor....If the engine detonates at lower than normal parameters , the detonation (knock) sensor  , tells the engine to set the check engine light with a EGR code.....   Many newer cars dont have egr valves anymore as the newer catalysts are efficient enough combined with advanced engine management to reduce NOX.....

[carusoam]

Nice explanation RJ,

In a classic continuous chemical process, the conversion of raw materials to finished products are increased by recycling a stream back through the reactor. Oxidizing fuel using an engine, making CO2, H2O and Heat, didn't account for NOX very well!

My '92 C4 (350ci, 10:1C/R LT-1) gets about 29 mpg with a 4 speed auto trans. No starting or stopping, highway only, 50mph, 1 person on board. Non-spirited driving.

Regenerative braking and electric motor will be helpful in the future...that will allow me start and stop more often and still maintain high mpg...

If we could fly @50mph in a Mooney @ 10,000’........

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Yes, recycling exhaust through the system occupies more volume. So how that is accounted for is... more cubes... Or less HP...

Electronic adjustable timing and knock sensors sounds like a nice feature...

-a-

[RJBrown]

  On 2/9/2013 at 1:38 PM, n74795 said:

Correction , EGR has no effect whatsoever on compression ratio......Egr is relative with power , Not active at Idle , higher volume of EGR at Higher power settings...It is used to control NOX emissions......Modern engines do not lose power from EGR as they advance the timing and change mixture to compensate for the diluted intake charge.......Quite the contrary , Modern engines get more power as a result of EGR because it reduces detonation allowing greater timing advance.....  Modern engines self diagnose a bad EGR by a knock sensor....If the engine detonates at lower than normal parameters , the detonation (knock) sensor  , tells the engine to set the check engine light with a EGR code.....   Many newer cars dont have egr valves anymore as the newer catalysts are efficient enough combined with advanced engine management to reduce NOX.....

 

 

 The post above is full of inaccuracies.

While EGR obviously cannot change the Compression ratio of an engine it "effectively" lowers it by diluting the incoming charge. Because exhaust gas contains no fuel or oxygen it does not change the mixture. It just takes up space that otherwise would contain air and fuel reducing the power available in the incoming fuel charge.

EGR is closed under high power situations so it does not affect power output when needed. It is only open during part throttle cruise.

Engine management systems do not compensate for EGR under high power situations they simply turn it off.

Timing advance is not related to EGR.

EGR codes are set by EGR position sensors or EGR temperature sensors. If the computer expects the EGR vave to be open but the temp sensor sees no heat or the position sensor sees no movement it turn on the light and sets a code. Knock sensor not involved.

Many new cars do not have EGR is a correct statement.

[Alan Fox]

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf    actually the only times the egr is shut off are wot (wide open throttle) and Idle......Secondly I have changed many egr valves for knock sensor codes.....When an egr valve fails , the engine detonates and gives a Knock sensor code , the repair is usually a vacuum line or VSV valve ..... Not all manufacturers use egr temp sensors , Most dont ....Most have a sensor that senses the mechanical travel of the valve itself....This is usually ineffective as many cars egr systems get clogged with soot , and the valve still travels mechanically , this failure is picked up by .....you guessed it detonation , and a knock sensor code.....  And guess what , when the car senses detonation , it retards the engine timing to stop the knock......

[RJBrown]

This is wrong, what car? what code? Back up the BS or stop posting inaccurate information.Your post:

"Modern engines self diagnose a bad EGR by a knock sensor....If the engine detonates at lower than normal parameters , the detonation (knock) sensor , tells the engine to set the check engine light with a EGR code....."

What code number is set to indicate EGR problem BECAUSE of knock sensor? P0401 ? P0402?

You posted Toyota info so here is a diag chart for the most common Toyota that uses EGR. (Camry with 5S-FE)

It lists codes and possible causes.

Anything that causes rough running can set a P0325. knock sensor. A plugged EGR would NOT cause rough running. Only too much EGR would cause rough running. I repeat a plugged EGR will not set a IKnock sensor code. Knock sensor will not set an EGR code in any car I know of.

Cite a particular car and code or I will assume you are posting ignorantly. Fortunately this is about cars and not Mooneys so you are not leading anyone astray about their plane.

[Marauder]

Wow! If I didn't know better, I thought I am in a discussion about my Ford Diesel 6.7 throwing NOx codes. Hopefully we won't start talking about HPFP failures due to water. To the original OP, I would not use a fuel injector cleaner on our engines. Pulling the injectors is the preferred process for dealing with partially clogged injectors.

[carusoam]

You (Alan & RJ) all are pretty sharp cookies...

I'm currently changing out my distributor on an Lt-1 (95 firebird). It senses a problem and resets the timing, robbing the power. This is typical of wear in the distributor. It's an annoyance every 50 - 75k miles for many 'Vettes, FBs and Camaros. Essentially dust clogs the crank position sensor, to clean it or swap it out is the choice.

Byron's discussion on power vs timing ring true with this example.

Best regards,

-a-

[Alan Fox]

I just disassemble them and blow them out with compressed air... Just be careful and take a good look at the water pump , as they can leak coolant from the seal on the shaft that drives them that runs through the distributer on that engine (if I remember correctly) .....

[Alan Fox]

As far as the EGR and knocksensors , The computer will throw an egr flow code for a blocked port , If it doesnt have the temp sensor on the valve , the only way the computer can sense low flow is when it senses the knock , it actuates the egr valve , if the engine still knocks it throws a egr flow code......You sound like an amateur tech , I have been doing this for 33 years , You sound like the type of guy that will throw an o2 sensor in for a lean code ....instead of figuring out why it is throwing the code , Like an intake leak or an air mass sensor.....But what do I know.....

[RJBrown]

Insults aside. You fail to give specifics. Just a troll with the gall to post a Bonanza he doesn't even own as his icon on a Mooney website.

[Alan Fox]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:27 AM, RJBrown said:

Insults aside. You fail to give specifics. Just a troll with the gall to post a Bonanza he doesn't even own as his icon on a Mooney website.

Hey Idiot , run the n numbers .... And I did give specifics......  Its 5839S and my Mooney is 5686Q.... Now go away.....http://report.myairplane.com/index.php

[RJBrown]

When your n7495 comes up to a Curtis in Tennesee and your page doesnt even list your name I had to wonder. You still haven't given a specific make model and year with a corresponding OBD code to back up your assertions.

PS

Still a troll to use a v tailed piece of garbage as your icon

[Alan Fox]

You see , why would I waste my time running your N number , It doesnt matter who you are , because you are an idiot.......And my V tail piece of Garbage is still 30 knots faster than your airplane.....Im laughing right now.....At you not with you.... 

[RJBrown]

Final post without specifics. This jerk acts like a know it all but when ask for specifics he fails. Quick to argue, second time with me after he tried to say any bonanza was faster than a Rocket. Defends B planes and insults Mooneys on the Mooney site. Pure troll. In another post he says "no offence" then spells Jose as Hose. Laugh till your tail falls off.