Is there an argument for a reworked M22 Mustang?

[Skypylott]

The Mustang is a big roomy aircraft with ample room for 5 adults, small Mooney owners would not believe how big it is! Big, roomy, pressurized and over 200 MPH at 65% power is hard to beat!

[aviatoreb]

Hi Skyplott - what's your fuel burn at 65%?  Is that where you usually run it?

Do you often fly high?

 

I wish they had made lots of M22's through out the decades so that there would be many to choose from.  As it is now, I bet yours is one of the very few that is in proper shape.

[carusoam]

(1) The IO550 is a nice motor that graces the front of many modern Moonies.

(2) It comes with reliability and ample power for a four seater that spends most of its time in a hangar.

(3) Turbo normalized gives approximately 300hp at altitude. Again, very nice power plant for an Acclaim owned by a guy from NJ.

(4) But if you are in the hot bed of west coast flying, "ordinary" probably isn't you...

Fun Power selection by simple math...

50 HP to get the airplane off the ground... (smaller plane would use less, larger would take more)

50 HP to get each additional adult off the ground... (less would take long T/O rolls, more would be peppy)

Using this "fun math" ...

150hp for a C152 would be fun...

200hp for a J would be fun for 3 people

300hp for a long body would be fun for 4 people.

TN 300hp would be fun for 4 people at altitude.

What would be fun power for a pressurized Mustang for 5 people in Chino?

150 HP to lift the A/F. The M22 is bigger than a long body...

5 X 50 =250 hp to lift 5 people. Pressurizing the people only makes sense if you pressurize the engine.

TN would be nice, but in Chino, TC would be a necessity. They fly sport jets there more than anywhere else.

I would guess a TC'd 400hp engine would be fun for a mustang in Chino.

Thanks for letting me help you spend your money.

Best regards,

-a-

This is a WAG. It is not to be confused as real engineering. It can be considered valid as a marketing study of one person.

[Skypylott]

Between 15,000 and 20,000 feet 2300 RPM and 27.0 inches MP makes 65% power. In round numbers I like 15000 to 18000 feet depending on direction and winds aloft! Averages 200 MPH @16 GPH with over 4 hours 30 minutes and 900 miles of range. Comfortable, roomy and pressurized.

The Mustang was ahead of it's time, in the 60's if you wanted pressurization you bought a twin engine aircraft fuel was very cheap! The Mustang was the very first pressurized single engine airplane ever certified 10 years before Cessna certified the P210! The Mooney carries more, climbs better and goes faster than the P210 or the Malibu! It's a very good under estimated aircraft simply because of the number produced. More would have been built and sold but Mooney went broke and filed bankruptcy in 1970 and the new owners decided a pressurized single had no market value. If you are interested in a Mustang I know of a 1970 model I think the 3rd to the last one produced. Would need a little avionics updating and TLC but a good solid aircraft at very reasonable price.

[Skypylott]

I like the fun horsepower theory, too bad the manufactures never figured it out! Factory built aircraft are always just a little underpowered. As far as the Mustang is concerned most are usually flown with 4 people or less so as I thought the 380 horsepower TIO-541-E1C4 would make it a very fun aircraft :-) better yet how about the Lycoming GTIO-541 425 horsepower pressurized Piper Navajo engine!!! It's not bad with 310 but would love 380 and would love 425 even more! :-) :-) :-)

[Skypylott]

Darn, got my myself thinking now! The Lycoming GTIO-541 P Navajo engine would be awesome in the Mustang! The airframe is built like a tank and could certainly handle the power! Would go in pretty easy with a little top cowl modification for the gearbox, but fuel consumption would certainly go up! That would be adding 115 horsepower to the aircraft WOW!!!

[Skypylott]

Correction Lycoming TIGO-541 not GTIO-541. Some models of the TIGO-541 have 450 horsepower but the most common I know of is the TIGO-541-E1A Piper P Navajo engine rated at 425 horsepower.

[DaV8or]

Darn, got my myself thinking now! The Lycoming GTIO-541 P Navajo engine would be awesome in the Mustang! The airframe is built like a tank and could certainly handle the power! Would go in pretty easy with a little top cowl modification for the gearbox, but fuel consumption would certainly go up! That would be adding 115 horsepower to the aircraft WOW!!!

 

I have always read that the geared engines were a mainenace nightmare. I think I would stick with direct drive. In your case, it needs to be whatever is easiest to satisfy the local FSDO. I would think that to mean the least amount of fabrication and engineering. Any additional HP might make them put you through endless flight testing for flutter in all kinds of flight attitudes and configurations. If you stay close to stock HP, probably easier to get the Feds OK. Just a guess and opinion, not fact.

[WardHolbrook]

Darn, got my myself thinking now! The Lycoming GTIO-541 P Navajo engine would be awesome in the Mustang! The airframe is built like a tank and could certainly handle the power! Would go in pretty easy with a little top cowl modification for the gearbox, but fuel consumption would certainly go up! That would be adding 115 horsepower to the aircraft WOW!!!

That engine was a pain in the keester in the P Navajo and one of the reasons why the airplane wasn't a commercial success.  

[WardHolbrook]

I have always read that the geared engines were a mainenace nightmare. I think I would stick with direct drive. In your case, it needs to be whatever is easiest to satisfy the local FSDO. I would think that to mean the least amount of fabrication and engineering. Any additional HP might make them put you through endless flight testing for flutter in all kinds of flight attitudes and configurations. If you stay close to stock HP, probably easier to get the Feds OK. Just a guess and opinion, not fact.

[Skypylott]

The same applys to the Duke and P Navajo engines I have flown and maintained both a Duke and a P Navajo for many hours while flying corporate. If operated correctly and often they are reliable the biggest issue is fuel consumption both are very thirsty! I would still opt for the TIO-541-E1C4 from the Beech Duke for ease of installation, possibility of approval and 380 HP is enough. More is better but has to be compared to pain for gain :-)

[preinke]

Greg Harrison from Winterset Aviation proposed to the FSDO to put a Williams turbine on a Mustang but was met with the expected bs. I think he has one for sale - it was in my hangar before I moved in and he maintains one for a retired military pilot.

[carusoam]

It seems like getting the appropriate power supply is key to success for the project...

-a-

[Skypylott]

I would love to know if he has the turbine for sale. I'm not sure appropriate is the correct term Mooney put an appropriate engine in the Mustang but unfortunately Lycoming doesn't support it anymore. They do support the higher horsepower variant that is used in the Beech Duke. What started the whole thought process is more is better:-) I am very happy with the engine I have but should the time come for a new engine my Mustang will probably get more power simply because I have an FBO with a maintenance shop that can do the work and with a little preserverance get it approved by FAA. Remember more power also equals more fuel consumption!

[Bob_Belville]

Does anyone no how to post pictures on this forum?

Pretty straightforward. Click on the "More Reply Options" button in the lower right corner. That should bring up some bring up a message about Attach Files at the bottom of you message. There are 2 uploaders. either way choose files from your computer and if you are using the advanced uploader it will automatically upload. Add more pic and when done hit Add Reply. (If you're using the basic uploader each pic takes two steps -- Choose File and then Attach this File. 

 

You should see thumbnails and other confirmations that things are working.

[carusoam]

Appropriate is the word I use when there isn't an obvious answer, but one can be determined by a fair amount of study.

IO360 is appropriate for the J

IO550 is appropriate for the bigger R

Both of these engines are popular enough that getting work done on them doesn't get your blood pressure up.

The M22 is even bigger, such that the TN IO550 may not be appropriate enough.

Your mission?

(1) Five seats

(2) Pressurization

(3) Mooney performance

(4) Piston power economics

Turbine operation and maintenance expenses leaves most of us in the piston camps... Take a look at what old TBM 700s used for ideas and rough comparisons.

Are you familiar with what it takes to get approval for you engine selection? This is far out of my expertise. I briefly considered the TN IO550, but there was no STC available for the Ovation.

If you are, Chino is the right place to be!

Best regards,

-a-

[ChrisH]

http://www.traceengines.com/engines/OE600

 

600HP liquid cooled 100LL beast, let's throw that on a m22 and clean up the aerodynamics and see what she does in the FL's. Course the 700lbs of engine up front might require some CG considerations. 

[DaV8or]

http://www.traceengines.com/engines/OE600

 

600HP liquid cooled 100LL beast, let's throw that on a m22 and clean up the aerodynamics and see what she does in the FL's. Course the 700lbs of engine up front might require some CG considerations. 

 

Wait a minute!! You can't put a Chevy engine in a Mustang!! That's sacrilege!

 

Neat idea, but I bet the project comes to halt when they see the $240,000 price tag... for the parts.

[Skypylott]

I see what you meant now I thought we were talking about what the

appropriate engine was when the aircraft was certified. You are talking

about and appropriate replacement engine. I still maintain that the

Lycoming TIO-541-E1C4 380 HP Beechcraft Duke engine would be the

appropriate replacement foe ease of installation it would practically bolt

in as a replacement for the Lycoming TIO-541-A1A it came with. I am

familiar with what it takes to get an STC for an engine change and it isn't

easy but can be done, I have done it in the past a few times. The closer to

the original engine with the least airframe modification the easier is is

that's why I maintain the Beech Duke engine would be best and easiest to

get approved. FAA may limit the horsepower by limiting manifold pressure

and RPM in the form of placards but when flying it who knows what power

settings you are using. They did that to me when we installed a 260 HP

engine in a Bonanza that originally had 225 HP. Allowed 260 HP for take off

and climb maximum for 5 minutes then limited it to maximum continuous 225

HP after that. If I ever need a new engine for my Mustang will probably

opt. for the TIO-541-E1A4 Beech Baron 56TC engine or the TIO-541-E1C4 Beech

Duke engine both of which are rated at 380 HP and will be a pretty simple

install with nearly no airframe modification.

[Skypylott]

A Chevrolet engine in a Mustang for 240K OMG! Unfortunately even if someone had and wanted to spend that much you could never get it approved by the FAA because it's not a certified engine. At any rate for that much money and work might as well put a certified turbine engine in it, like Rocket Engineering does with the Malibu and Beech Duke and Soloy does with the Cessna 210 etc. PT6, Allison or Walters any of them would be awesome!

[aviatoreb]

Wait a minute!! You can't put a Chevy engine in a Mustang!! That's sacrilege!

 

Neat idea, but I bet the project comes to halt when they see the $240,000 price tag... for the parts.

 

No price is too high for 600-frigin-ponies!

[Skypylott]

You can easily get 600 horsepower from a much more reliable turbin engine and for less money! Not sure where the market is for a Chevrolet variant engine that cost that much! Turbine is the way to go on anything that needs that much power!

[carusoam]

The Chevy typically comes with a gear box. Gear boxes are not well known for their reliability.

The 600hp engine mentioned 4000 or so rpm. So that would be inappropriate.

Are you able to have a conversation with your local FSDO(?) regarding the possibility of using the Duke engine on the M22 and what else may be required?

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

A Chevrolet engine in a Mustang for 240K OMG! Unfortunately even if someone had and wanted to spend that much you could never get it approved by the FAA because it's not a certified engine. At any rate for that much money and work might as well put a certified turbine engine in it, like Rocket Engineering does with the Malibu and Beech Duke and Soloy does with the Cessna 210 etc. PT6, Allison or Walters any of them would be awesome!

 

It is certified. Has been for years. It used to be sold under the name Orenda. The difference is the economy of operation. It burns way less fuel than a turbine. Overall operation costs are much cheaper and it makes it's rated HP from ground on up. The $240,000 buys you all brand new, if you go turbine, well the price is much, much higher for all new. There are several advantages to the Trace engine, but most people go for turbine. I guess it's status, or jet envy?

 

I agree though, that a used turbine that is out of hot section may be the cheaper install. Over time though... ?

[Skypylott]

I didn't know it was an FAA certified engine although I have heard of the Orenda. I think most people choose turbine for ease of operation and reliability. I have talked with FAA about installation of a Beech Duke TIO-541-E1A4 or E1C4 engine and it can be done. You have to jump through the same hoops but since it is the same family as the TIO-541-A1A originally used in the Mustang the installation would be very easy and the FAA approval would be easier than any other engine conversion. If there were enough Mustangs out there to make it worth while I'm sure Rocket Engineering would already have put a PT6 in one what a machine that would be!