Sad Tale of a IO-360 A3B6D. Be careful folks!

[sreid]

I think the standard shoulder harness would likely just spin you into the center of the panel anyway. They don't seem well designed to me. They're almost "off the shoulder" harness'.

Even if the guy had survived the impact, he'd be a pretty sick boy...

In my opinion his estate should sue his mechanic for not following the SB. That guy was killed by his mechanic.

Why should they sue? This is a well known issue. We partake in an activity that is well known to be a bit more dangerous than sitting on the couch. Sometimes things happen. Everytime something bad happens does not equal I won a lottery ticket.

[fantom]

SB are not mandatory...but sure sue the mechanic, the guy who washes the plane, anyone who's ever looked at it, MooneySpace, the list is endless. Kill GA, but assist the lawyers, and maybe, just maybe the lottery winning heirs.

Sorry, but IMHO that attitude reflects much of what is wrong with America these days.

[DaV8or]

I think the standard shoulder harness would likely just spin you into the center of the panel anyway. They don't seem well designed to me. They're almost "off the shoulder" harness'.

Even if the guy had survived the impact, he'd be a pretty sick boy...

In my opinion his estate should sue his mechanic for not following the SB. That guy was killed by his mechanic.

Well, shoulder harnesses aren't as good as the four point harnesses, they are far better than nothing and there is a lot of data from the automotive world to indicate they are more than moderately affective. The airbag is the best yet IMO.

Don't worry about the law suits I'm sure they're coming along nicely and all our costs will stay at a nice high level, or even go up.

[flyboy0681]

Sorry, but IMHO that attitude reflects much of what is wrong with America these days.

I agree, but it's been going on for a long time. First indication of this was the drop in aircraft production in the 80's due to product liability.

[AcclaimML]

SB are not mandatory...but sure sue the mechanic, the guy who washes the plane, anyone who's ever looked at it, MooneySpace, the list is endless. Kill GA, but assist the lawyers, and maybe, just maybe the lottery winning heirs.

Sorry, but IMHO that attitude reflects much of what is wrong with America these days.

Amen, Brother.

Personal responsibility--pass it on.

[jetdriven]

I agree, but it's been going on for a long time. First indication of this was the drop in aircraft production in the 80's due to product liability.

I thought the economy fell apart. Boat builders all went bust, as did most of the other toy makers. Remember interest was 13-16% then as well.

[kortopates]

Regarding the survivability question, I can’t believe the NTSB omitted whether the pilot was equipped and wearing a shoulder harness. There was no mention of seat belt at all that I could find. Anybody see anything to the contrary? Being a ’78 J, there is good chance it didn’t have shoulder belts – although I thought everyone had long since retrofitted them and was surprised to see that's not true from at least one post above. From looking at the debris diagram and picture though, I agree with Byron in that it looks like the plane came in too fast to make much difference. But It also appears the pilot wasn’t committed to flying the plane through the landing sequence by doing everything he could to put the plane down as slow as possible (and into the wind if there was any). The report indicated the engine controls will all still forward (engine was making partial power) the flaps were up along with the gear and it supposedly came in with both the left wing and nose low. But I think I too would have kept the gear up once I realized the roughness of the terrain. But coming in with a low left wing (and nose) appears to have likely sealed his fate causing the plane to roll sideways by about midway along his 160’ debris field. I’d like to think it could have been survivable if the pilot had been able to fly it through the accident sequence by stalling it in with full flaps, wings level. Obviously we can’t really know for sure, but with the nearly a 5 kt lower stall speed advantage with full flaps – (although that’s also with the gear down and the POH doesn’t tell us exactly how much with the gear kept up); that’s got to help quite a bit. Its certainly possible hitting a flap could have twisted the plane around too, but if he had be able to hold it off till going slower at slightly above 50kts with wings stalled it seems it would have been much less likely to turn out like it did.

In addition to shoulder belts, I am sure more altitude would have really helped this pilot too, but given the accident occurred only 7 miles away I suspect he may not have gotten than more than 3000K feet of altitude at best even if he had full power to climb the first 5 miles. Thus really very little time for him to respond and commit to the landing as I mentioned above – maybe way too little time for pilot with 20hrs in the last 6 months if he wasn’t feeling totally comfortable in his Mooney. I suspect the whole flight was only a few minutes long.

Incidentally, the report clearly states the proper hardware to secure the magneto had been used to comply with Lycoming SI-1508B . Its concludes the “magneto clamps were not securely fastened to the mount, which led to a partial loss of engine power and a subsequent forced landing on unsuitable terrain”. It had only been about ~10hrs since its annual.

[jetdriven]

N50BJ had shoulder belts. http://www.airport-d...to/570358L.html

But I also think at that speed it wouldnt have mattered. A M20J will stall at 56 MPH or so, this looks like well over twice that. Perhaps he was too busy troubleshooting and did what John Denver did.

[kortopates]

N50BJ had shoulder belts. http://www.airport-d...to/570358L.html

But I also think at that speed it wouldnt have mattered. A M20J will stall at 56 MPH or so, this looks like well over twice that. Perhaps he was too busy troubleshooting and did what John Denver did.

Indeed, that picture you found was taken the very same day of the accident! (on his leg out to furnance creek). It sure seems he came down pretty fast given the number of G's its takes to brake a wing spar, so you're probably right about it being more like a 100 or more.

[320KPH]

It'd be a great J to make 3K in 5 miles!

I NEVER fit a nut or bolt without securing it RIGHT THEN. I was told that by the best engineer I have ever met.

Even the best mechanics can make mistakes, we're all human.

[jlunseth]

Well, I am all for personal responsibility. But the "two pack" mag is a vulnerable failure point that unfortunately takes out the only engine on your one-engined aircraft. Add to that, that mechanics will make mistakes ( and I have seen more than my share), and you have a higher than normal chance of engine failure which the pilot cannot prevent (unless they do their own engine work). It is an unfortunate fact of life that our lives rest in the hands of mechanics, who too often do not do their job very well. I get really tired of paying for the repair. And then the repair to the repair because the repair was wrong. And then the rebuild to the repair to the repair because the repair to the repair came apart and the engine got hurt. Etc., etc., etc. Have seen so much of it that the "always the pilot/owner's fault" just does not cut it with me anymore. What mistake did this pilot make, except to fly a plane with a known fault, repaired by a mechanic who apparently did not do his job?

[jetdriven]

Well you know the oil was changed two or three times since overhaul and I don't know about you guys, but if I could check one thing, it is that mag.. Give it a good push every 25 hours minimum.

[OR75]

you would think it is not that difficult to make sure something stay attached and does not get undone because of vibrations.

[DaV8or]

you would think it is not that difficult to make sure something stay attached and does not get undone because of vibrations.

In addition to vibration, we also have expansion and contraction of various metals that also promote things falling apart and failing. As far as I can tell, a piston airplane engine is just a collection of parts trying to beat themselves to death. The only thing that keeps the thing working at all is constant attention and inspection.

[aviatoreb]

In addition to vibration, we also have expansion and contraction of various metals that also promote things falling apart and failing. As far as I can tell, a piston airplane engine is just a collection of parts trying to beat themselves to death. The only thing that keeps the thing working at all is constant attention and inspection.

Can't bolts be wired for redundancy?

[flyboy0681]

Can't bolts be wired for redundancy?

I was going to ask that, are the bolts safety wired?

[KSMooniac]

The mag bolts are not safety wired as there isn't a good place to secure them, and access is a royal PITA. They rely on star washers that are single-use items, and of course proper torque.

[aviatoreb]

The mag bolts are not safety wired as there isn't a good place to secure them, and access is a royal PITA. They rely on star washers that are single-use items, and of course proper torque.

Darned - for want of a spot to safety wire....it COULD have been originally designed to allow for safety wire if they insisted to use a single-point failure mag like this.

[KSMooniac]

Rampant lawsuits weren't the concern in the mid-70s like they are today, unfortunately.

[aviatoreb]

Rampant lawsuits weren't the concern in the mid-70s like they are today, unfortunately.

Mostly the certification process is a good thing in my opinion. When it comes to a minor adjustment like this which could have a major safety improvement, it is too bad that the certification process stands in the way. Someone, maybe MAPA, or maybe a group of you guys with 20Js should band together and develop an STC to safety wire that troublesome nut in place. I know some of the other owner groups have STC's of this sort.

[DaV8or]

Can't bolts be wired for redundancy?

Safety wiring keeps nuts and bolts from falling off altogether, but they don't ensure proper torque. So yeah, they could be safety wired, but it won't ensure they won't come loose.

[Lionudakis]

I think the standard shoulder harness would likely just spin you into the center of the panel anyway. They don't seem well designed to me. They're almost "off the shoulder" harness'.

Even if the guy had survived the impact, he'd be a pretty sick boy...

In my opinion his estate should sue his mechanic for not following the SB. That guy was killed by his mechanic.

Did I miss something in the report proving 100% negligence on the mechanics part?

[twall001]

On 11/9/2012 at 11:59 AM, AndyFromCB said:

Pictures like that is what seriously makes me consider getting a twin and running 500lb under gross all the time. Or, don't kill me, a Cirrus. Older I get, the less I trust in my skill and luck combination needed for a survivable forced landing anywhere but Iowa which essentially is one giant airport, with mile long runway, thank to rectangular survey system.

 

Been eyeing a 414A with a lot of lust.

Hello, Right now my main goal is an MSE (done with renting) and would like to know more about that bird. I completely respect what you have to say. There is alot to say about a twin and as money affords I see myself going that way. (growing family) any reason in peticular you mentioned a 414 opposed to a 340?

Thanks, Tom

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, twall001 said:

Hello, Right now my main goal is an MSE (done with renting) and would like to know more about that bird. I completely respect what you have to say. There is alot to say about a twin and as money affords I see myself going that way. (growing family) any reason in peticular you mentioned a 414 opposed to a 340?

Thanks, Tom

Keep in mind that you're replying to a 10 year old thread. 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Keep in mind that you're replying to a 10 year old thread. 

That explains why the links don’t work

A few comments though.

Ref helmets, FAA requires ag Pilots to wear one, Investigating accidents I’ve seen several that saved lives, do I wear one in my Mooney even though I have three? No, but they do work. 

Three point harness is better than four, reason is you submarine a four point, 5 point is best. The diagonal belt on a three point helps stop you from sliding out under the lap belt.