Garmin Pilot disappointment

[Jackk]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

TOGA is an autopilot function, not a navigator function. The GNS series are navigators. Maybe I’m not understanding you. Can you describe what you mean when you say TOGA works with a GNS? 

Negative, the button can sequence the missed on a GNS, this was the case in the 530w/520w I flew for a loooong time 

[midlifeflyer]

19 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have been to two of his Avidyne classes. I asked him once about a situation I ran into and all he said was “don’t do that” not very helpful….

Sorry. Irresistible 

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I would not press that button until I had the plane configured for climb and all trimmed out. That thing would scare me.

It shouldn’t.  It just gives you a target pitch and wings-level attitude. I fly with the FD engaged and A/P off all the time. It’s good practice, like training wheels for hand-flying or automation set-up.

I don’t know if it’s considered “legacy,” but I’m pretty sure the KFC200 and whatever the AI was on my 231 had this feature.

-dan

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Jackk said:

Negative, the button can sequence the missed on a GNS, this was the case in the 530w/520w I flew for a loooong time 

I have flown a GNS 430W for years also, and respectfully suggest that you are full of it. Here is the 530W installation manual and pilot's guide. Please show me where there is a pin for a discrete Go Around button or a procedure in the pilots guide for using an external button to initiate a missed approach.

BTW, I cannot find that a 520W you claim to have flown even exists.

GNS530W_InstallationManual_190-00357-02_.pdf

190-00357-00_K.pdf

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

It also unsuspends the navigator and sequences it to the missed approach.

This is an installation option with newer Garmin navigators such as the GTN series -- not all installations may be set up that way. I suspect that most are.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

(If you’ve never flown with a flight director, chances are you won’t miss it. Pilots transitioning  to an airplane with one often have trouble getting used to it. Once they do, it becomes a valuable tool in maintaining the proper attitude in all phases of flight)

I have been flying most approaches coupled to get all the setup and button pushing second hand. When I hand fly, I've been using the FD. Last IPC we did a raw data approach and it wasn't pretty. It's so easy with the FD that I found that I'm really rusty using raw data. So, it's good to practice everything. I wonder if I could still manage a DME arc on raw data? It's been years since I've done that, and I used to be pretty good at it. 

[McMooney]

47 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I have been flying most approaches coupled to get all the setup and button pushing second hand. When I hand fly, I've been using the FD. Last IPC we did a raw data approach and it wasn't pretty. It's so easy with the FD that I found that I'm really rusty using raw data. So, it's good to practice everything. I wonder if I could still manage a DME arc on raw data? It's been years since I've done that, and I used to be pretty good at it. 

man no one has even mentioned dme arcs in years.  Heck even the approach i flew for my checkride is now gone

[PT20J]

11 minutes ago, McMooney said:

man no one has even mentioned dme arcs in years.  Heck even the approach i flew for my checkride is now gone

There is a VOR-A approach at KPAE with a DME arc that is near and dear to the local DPEs. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Sorry. Irresistible 

But I was asking about dealing with a situation my CFI friend threw at me while pretending to be ATC. It was a legit request.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, PT20J said:

There is a VOR-A approach at KPAE with a DME arc that is near and dear to the local DPEs. 

They do love the DME arc. I had to do the same one on my multi commercial and ATP. One without the hood and one with it.. I think they are pretty easy. I’ve never had to do one for real. I have flown approaches that had them, but ATC just vectors me.

[N201MKTurbo]

IFR flying used to be about situational awareness and flying skills. Now it is about navigator and autopilot skills. Not a good thing or a bad thing, just the way it is.

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

IFR flying used to be about situational awareness and flying skills. Now it is about navigator and autopilot skills. Not a good thing or a bad thing, just the way it is.

Good observation.  Sometimes I think that even BFRs or primary instruction have turned into trick questions instead of flying.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, McMooney said:

man no one has even mentioned dme arcs in years.  Heck even the approach i flew for my checkride is now gone

There’s one near me. I used to use it sometimes for IPCs, but no longer use any ground based approaches that require DME unless the aircraft has real DME. So it’s as  rare as the arcs

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

But I was asking about dealing with a situation my CFI friend threw at me while pretending to be ATC. It was a legit request.

I don’t doubt you at all.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

IFR flying used to be about situational awareness and flying skills. Now it is about navigator and autopilot skills. Not a good thing or a bad thing, just the way it is.

I agree but only in part. Navigators are stupid creatures. They do what we tell them to do. GIGO. The “garbage in” might be buttonology, but also lack of SA. An example is one of my list of “GPS Tasks Pilots Don’t Know How to Do.” It made the list when 3 pilots in a row screwed it up. 

The task requires the approach to be flown coupled all the way to minimums. We are inbound for an approach in which loading it adds the hold in lieu automatically. I announce to expect vectors to the IF and begin vectoring. The vectors move them into the proper position and I instruct direct to the IF,  cleared  straight in. Three pilots in a row, including a CFII, were surprised when the airplane turned outbound. 

The percentages vary, but I see more or less equal parts of both in this real-world task that I think is becoming common as an alternative to vectors to final.

• buttonology - not knowing how to clear/bypass the hold
• SA - not realizing from the position they are being moved into that straight in was likely and that something in the flight plan might need to be adjusted,

[Jackk]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

I have flown a GNS 430W for years also, and respectfully suggest that you are full of it. Here is the 530W installation manual and pilot's guide. Please show me where there is a pin for a discrete Go Around button or a procedure in the pilots guide for using an external button to initiate a missed approach.

BTW, I cannot find that a 520W you claim to have flown even exists.

GNS530W_InstallationManual_190-00357-02_.pdf 4.54 MB · 0 downloads

190-00357-00_K.pdf 8.02 MB · 1 download

 Interesting, I could have sworn the dual 530 Pilatus I flew it would also initiate the missed, its been a while I could be wrong there.

Edited Sunday at 03:50 PM by Jackk

[Jackk]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I agree but only in part. Navigators are stupid creatures. They do what we tell them to do. GIGO. The “garbage in” might be buttonology, but also lack of SA. An example is one of my list of “GPS Tasks Pilots Don’t Know How to Do.” It made the list when 3 pilots in a row screwed it up. 

The task requires the approach to be flown coupled all the way to minimums. We are inbound for an approach in which loading it adds the hold in lieu automatically. I announce to expect vectors to the IF and begin vectoring. The vectors move them into the proper position and I instruct direct to the IF,  cleared  straight in. Three pilots in a row, including a CFII, were surprised when the airplane turned outbound. 

The percentages vary, but I see more or less equal parts of both in this real-world task that I think is becoming common as an alternative to vectors to final.

• buttonology - not knowing how to clear/bypass the hold
• SA - not realizing from the position they are being moved into that straight in was likely and that something in the flight plan might need to be adjusted,

 Indeed, there is a saying “never fly to a way point you haven’t already mentally flown to”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965

[midlifeflyer]

6 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 Indeed, there is a saying “never fly to a way point you haven’t already mentally flown to”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965

I wrote about this in one of the last issues of IFR Magazine before Firecrown killed it off.

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, PT20J said:

I . . . respectfully suggest that you are full of it.

GNS530W_InstallationManual_190-00357-02_.pdf 4.54 MB · 0 downloads

190-00357-00_K.pdf 8.02 MB · 1 downlo

I agree with you 100% . . .  But how do you respectfully tell someone that they are full of it. . . lol? 

“With all due respect (“zero”while clearing your throat), I suggest you are full of it”

[Jackk]

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

I have flown a GNS 430W for years also, and respectfully suggest that you are full of it. Here is the 530W installation manual and pilot's guide. Please show me where there is a pin for a discrete Go Around button or a procedure in the pilots guide for using an external button to initiate a missed approach.

BTW, I cannot find that a 520W you claim to have flown even exists.

GNS530W_InstallationManual_190-00357-02_.pdf 4.54 MB · 0 downloads

190-00357-00_K.pdf 8.02 MB · 1 download

 Oh you found a typo, here’s a cookie

 

Looks like a momentary switch on pin 71

Hitting the TOGA after crossing the MAP toggles the OBS and starts the GNS towards the MAHP

 

 Have you flown as professional IFR pilot in anything with a TOGA button?  I wouldn’t think many DC3s have them, but that’s a type I don’t have.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 05:57 PM by Jackk

[bonal]

2 hours ago, Jackk said:

 Interesting, I could have sworn the dual 530 Pilatus I flew it would also initiate the missed, its been a while I could be wrong there.

WAIT, WHAT!

[bonal]

Seriously, this has evolved from a guy that was unhappy with the EFB Garmin product.  Unfortunately a fair bit of ego bruising but for an VFR only pilot like myself has been very educational. 

[Jackk]

6 minutes ago, bonal said:

Seriously, this has evolved from a guy that was unhappy with the EFB Garmin product.  Unfortunately a fair bit of ego bruising but for an VFR only pilot like myself has been very educational. 

 A EFB talk works its way into talking about IFR procedures, seems like a likely place said conversation may go

[bonal]

Don’t think of it as criticism as I said very educational.  But I think in my humble opinion more productive without the stone throwing.

[PT20J]

56 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 Oh you found a typo, here’s a cookie

 

Looks like a momentary switch on pin 71

Hitting the TOGA after crossing the MAP toggles the OBS and starts the GNS towards the MAHP

 

 Have you flown as professional IFR pilot in anything with a TOGA button?  I wouldn’t think many DC3s have them, but that’s a type I don’t have.

 

 

I don't believe that this is the intended use of the OBS Mode Select discrete input. Although connecting a TOGA button to it and pressing it during an approach should cause the navigator to unsuspend and sequence to the MAHP, pressing TOGA at other times (like before takeoff) would cause the OBS mode to toggle which is not what you would want. Anyway, the only drawing I see in the installation manual utilizing this input shows connecting it to a Mid-Continent MD41 Series Annunciation Control Unit which includes a button labelled OBS (not TOGA). I believe this drawing, coupled with the fact that there is no mention of a TOGA (or Go Around as Garmin calls it) button in the installation manual or the pilot's guide pretty clearly indicates the intended purpose of the OBS mode select input.

MD41-140X_141X_im.pdf