Lasar

[Alan Maurer]

Moonez People.

Why are some Mooney owners bitching about  part prices from Lasar. Seems to me that we should be very happy that they will continue to support Mooney airplanes. These are great airplanes and we want to keep them flying. 

Alan

N913ND

[Echo]

Alan,

 I can only speak for myself, but I feel a vast disconnect between myself as a vintage Mooney owner versus long body "modern" Mooney owners.

[Brandt]

I think mainly because bitching about the weather gets old, and they really need to bitch about something.  Probably need more fiber in their diet.

[MikeOH]

49 minutes ago, Echo said:

Alan,

 I can only speak for myself, but I feel a vast disconnect between myself as a vintage Mooney owner versus long body "modern" Mooney owners.

Me, too!

IMHO, LASAR’s pricing is purely predatory and based on their monopoly. How else do you explain, as an example, charging over $100 for a simple seat roller that they previously sold for under 20 bucks?  Sure, it’s market pricing and based on capitalism which is why I won’t rant “it isn’t fair” They are free to do as they please. As I am to bitch about it.

I understand that owners which have spent north of $500K on their planes don’t give a crap about the part prices; they’re just happy to be able to buy them.

But to be mystified why some owners (e. g. me) complain about usurious prices is some sad combination of elitism and naïveté.

[Brandt]

You’ll truly understand the meaning of usurious if private equity gets hold of Mooney.  

[Justin Schmidt]

23 minutes ago, Brandt said:

You’ll truly understand the meaning of usurious if private equity gets hold of Mooney.  

This is were the true community comes together and shares knowledge and expertise with OPP. Much like the other defunct manufacturers. But being extorted for the privilege to be extorted.

[PT20J]

We all hope that Mooney factory produced parts and 3rd party parts that are built for Mooney to Mooney specifications remain available. Some of us are more price sensitive than others, but ultimately availability is more important than cost.

I think a lot of the concern is that LASAR has articulated good intentions but has not described in any detail how it intends to create a sustainable parts business beyond significantly raising prices. The membership plan does not inspire confidence because it appears to signal serious undercapitalization for the task at hand. 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Brandt said:

You’ll truly understand the meaning of usurious if private equity gets hold of Mooney.  

Actually, at that point I suspect YOU and @Alan Maurer will finally understand usurious prices!

Or, if you are rich enough, I guess you'll still "be very happy that they will continue to support Mooney airplanes."

[PT20J]

I just noticed the LASAR ad in the current Mooney Flyer https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2025-NovTMF.pdf. Apparently they are trying to raise money through a private placement offering.

[MikeOH]

Can't blame 'em for making sure they lose Other People's Money

[Justin Schmidt]

43 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Can't blame 'em for making sure they lose Other People's Money

It's the coast's way

[Alan Maurer]

7 hours ago, Echo said:

Alan,

 I can only speak for myself, but I feel a vast disconnect between myself as a vintage Mooney owner versus long body "modern" Mooney owners.

Well, we are all part of an elite group of Mooney pilots. They  all have the same characteristics and we go faster than the other guys. When I see others at an airport , I feel a connection and I am glad to see them. Whether an older or newer Mooney , still better than the others  

Alan

[Justin Schmidt]

1 hour ago, Alan Maurer said:

They  all have the same characteristics

Is that being assholes and having egos our butts can't cash

[00-Negative]

13 hours ago, Brandt said:

You’ll truly understand the meaning of usurious if private equity gets hold of Mooney.  

I think that's exactly what's happening right now. But I don't think LASAR's model is sustainable. They're essentially pricing out vintage Money owners. I, for one, well not spend essentially  >1% of my plane's value on plastic seat rollers. LASAR seems to be targeting the much higher valued Mooneys in the fleet. But those Mooneys represent a much smaller number and probably will need far fewer parts over the next decade. With the astronomical increase in parts pricing, I think it will push down the resale value of all Mooneys. 

 

[Sabremech]

LASAR turned on the vintage Mooney community several years ago in regards to the owner produced parts. Funny how they have a short term memory and  now want us to support them? No thanks. 

[Crawfish]

My view point is I bought a plane that in today’s dollars would cost more than my house when new. And mx on it is priced as if it was still that 800k plane. Yes it’s 46 years old, but I wouldn’t by a vintage Porsche or Ferrari then complain about the high cost to maintain it. I won’t go out of my way to spend more that necessary but if I need that 3000 part well shit, but I need it so I’m going to buy it and not complain. 
 

I may be in a smaller group but I also keep expense and hard to get parts on hand. IE an extra overhauled cylinder assembly, turbo V band clamps etc. because while the cost of them is high the cost of my plane being down is higher. 

[PT20J]

Richard Collins pointed out many times over the years that the cost of maintaining an airplane is more related to the cost of a new airplane than the current value of the airplane. This was based on his experience owning many airplanes over 60 years. 

[Echo]

"Yes it’s 46 years old, but I wouldn’t by a vintage Porsche or Ferrari then complain about the high cost to maintain it"

 

I own both.  HUGE difference.  I have access to aftermarket parts with resllers such as Amazon and Ebay competing on price of parts.  I can (AND DO) do maintenance myself.  There are multiple European shops that also compete should I not wish to do my own maintenance.

I do NOT "complain" about Ferrari and Porsche parts prices.  It is NOT a monopoly.

Edited Monday at 03:10 PM by Echo

[Echo]

Thankfully Lasar is not a monopoly either as I can buy used parts off Ebay.  @$&# Lasar.  As previously stated: I wish them failure.

[DCarlton]

I'm not gonna bitch until I have to buy a part.  Then I'll consider the cost of US engineering, manufacturing set up and production labor, FAA oversight (audits, approvals), packaging, sales, shipping, insurance, and then doubling the cost to turn a profit and see if I think the cost is reasonable.  Considering the limited market, even a seat roller is going to be expensive.  

 

[dkkim73]

FYI I got a call last week from Lasar that the wing gauge capsules marked for my tanks had come, it sounds like a batch of 25 or so arrived and they were calling the "let us know when you get 'em" list. They might have been a bit more than I'd remembered but not absurdly more. NB the price is intrinsically a bit wacky for such a small part, as discussed previously, but explained by the small #s and custom order (for the label marking) from the actual gauge manufacturer. 

 

 

 

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, Echo said:

I own both.  HUGE difference.  I have access to aftermarket parts with resllers such as Amazon and Ebay competing on price of parts.  I can (AND DO) do maintenance myself.  

I've actually been surprised by how maintainable some older quality cars are (e.g. Lexus GX variants, older Bimmers and Mercs, etc) with aftermarket parts apparently kept afloat by enthusiast communities and a steady stream of OEM and knock-offs. There's almost a special market I think, as newer cars are built differently and not always in the ways that you would want. 

Never owned a Porsche but have thought from time to time that a 996-variant would be a nice purchase at some point; used to be able to get a good deal esp. if you had the bro hook-up on a good source and maintainer (e.g. IMS fix). 

I imagine the difference with our Mooney situation is just all the regulation in aviation. 

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Never owned a Porsche but have thought from time to time that a 996-variant would be a nice purchase at some point; used to be able to get a good deal esp. if you had the bro hook-up on a good source and maintainer (e.g. IMS fix). 

Yes, I have no problem (i.e. NOT high cost) maintaining my 996TT (which does NOT suffer from the IMS issue; it doesn't have an IMS).  There are plenty of aftermarket part choices, not to mention that even buying parts from Porsche is NOT as brutal as LASAR's recent pricing 'strategy'.  Frankly, it has been the most reliable car I've owned and was my daily driver for nearly a decade before I retired.  It's well over 20 years old and I still love it!

8 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

I imagine the difference with our Mooney situation is just all the regulation in aviation.

I think it more likely that there is competition from multiple suppliers more than regulation.  Of course, that plethora of choices is driven by a huge market size vs. the situation with our Mooneys.

[Schllc]

Toyota imports 212,000 camry's in one year into the US, that is about 200k more than all the mooney's ever made..

A "high"  production aircraft is still a scarce item.  

I do not want to pay monthly for some vague promise of priority and pricing, or to have "early" access to parts.  This seems like a poorly thought out idea.  None of the advantages are quantifiable, and it certainly makes them seem desperate.  I mean if someone who does not subscribe needs a part in the future are they going to refuse to sell it to them?  Of course not, they want to sell as many parts as possible.   Or lets say there is no stock of an item that requires a minimum order of 50 to get from the vendor and one subscribing customer orders one part, what happens?  Do they order the 50 and hope to sell them to other subscribers or do they wait until they have most or all of them sold prior to ordering?  None of this is clarified.

I would have preferred to prepay some amount in the form of a credit, to order future parts at cost plus 10% that would be attached to my tail number.  This way it is actually something that you could use if you kept the plane, or at least use as a selling point to the person buying the plane.  This is absolutely quantifiable, allows everyone to choose their own level of support or participation, and could provide Lasar the cash to build inventory.  They could also do a survey of desired parts, to compliment the database search of what is selling to identify the best and highest need for parts

I get the logic behind the idea to make this analogous to insurance, they felt that the owners would like to make sure product support would continue.  I mean all of us want Mooney to survive and produce parts to keep our fleet flying, but even after all this time and all the feedback, they still cannot adequately explain how this benefits the person paying the fees.  What happens if you subscribe to the "Gold" level for 10 years and at the end you have ordered $5,000 in parts.   You have paid $50,000 for the privilege of a 25% discount which saved you $1,250?  Mind you, none of these levels of membership guarantee availability of anything either!  If you had to wait 4 months for an order to be filled this would not bring about a bunch of warm and fuzzy feelings about the monthly bill.

This is not a compelling sales pitch at all, in fact, it seems like a very poorly received attempt to persuade.  When that happens you need to reevaluate and adjust.  When you are doing something that is not working and making the issue worse, the first step is to stop that thing!

I also see that I am not in the minority of opinions here, their own website says only 8 people have elected to "join".  Here is the kicker, while mooneyspace is a small sample of the ownership demographic, we are a much more relevant example of engaged owners who actually do think about the future of the company.  I would venture to bet that 70% of owners are completely oblivious to this situation and if they got something in the mail asking them to pay monthly to support a business they do not currently need anything from, that mailer is going directly from the mailbox to the garbage can.  If people who are engaged and care, cannot figure out the benefit, how to you expect to convince the rest of the fleets owners?  At least a prepaid credit toward future parts as a capital raise is simple and quantifiable.

I have been optimistic/hopeful, and very open to hearing them tailor this proposal to make more sense, but it appears they are not going to go this direction.  

If I am missing something and there is a benefit here, I would love someone to explain it to me.

 

[Echo]

Shady ia as shady does...