DC_Brasil Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 Hello everyone, After being an aircraft owner for a little over an year now, I've been able to fly about 100 hours in my 1990 M20J and, consequently, I was able to better understand my typical mission profile. I want to have a little more speed and be able to fly higher (meaning turbocharged) to escape the uncomfortable thermal turbulences and benefit from better weather avoidance. Consequently I've been looking at possible models to change to. Although two of those aren't Mooney, I'd like to hear the valid and wise inputs from this group. Additionally, I am thinking of already getting something with glass panel so I won't need to go through the lengthy process of finding a shop and upgrading. Also, it must fit a budget of up to USD$ 400K. The options I have been looking into are: 1 - A turbocharged Mooney (Ovation, Ovation 2...). Something built in the years 2000s, with G1000 or upgraded. 2 - A late G3 (2010 to 2012) Cirrus SR22T or TN (Avidyne or Garmin). 3 - A later built Piper Saratoga II TC (Avidine or Garmin). Thinking about the pros and cons of each. The useful load and fuel load of all of these planes will be very similar. 1 - Pros: It is a Mooney ❤️. I will have better efficiency, more speed and lower fuel consumption. Cons: Only has 1 door, less resale value and tougher market if Indecide to sell, less maintenance support (very scarce in Brazil). 2 - Pros: More modern and larger maintenance support. Simpler without retractable gear, has two doors, super comfortable, sidesticks (more space up front) the wife feels nice about the parachute. Cons: lowest payload, has the largest fuel consumption, bigger maintenance costs. 3 - Pros: larger cabin, more luggage space, largest fuel tanks, largest payload, large passenger door, wide maintenance network. Cons: the slowest of the 3. Would love to read your inputs, experiences and I am certain you'll point out things I haven't considered.
Paul Thomas Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 (edited) The M20U/V has two doors and aren't those in your budget? The sweet spot for me in the SR22 line is a 2006 with a new chute and AC. Updating that generation avionics is easier than others. I'd add a Bonanza to the shopping list if I were you. Edited as I had the wrong Mooney model (M20M instead of U/V) Edited October 26 by Paul Thomas 1
Schllc Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 All k models, all. Bravos, most acclaims are in your price range. the m20m does not have two doors. only the m20u and the m20v have two doors and they are well out of your budget. As for the bonanza, finding one in your budget, appointed as specified would he harder. I never cared for the feel of any piper I’ve flown, but I’m sure that’s merely a preference. there is a great deal on a damaged history acclaim currently! 1
mike_elliott Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 There is a nice acclaim sn 31-0127 for sale under 400 I have spent a lot of time in 1
Fly Boomer Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 3 hours ago, DC_Brasil said: A turbocharged Mooney (Ovation, Ovation 2...). Something built in the years 2000s, with G1000 or upgraded. Is there an STC to turbocharge Ovations? 1
Hank Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 5 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Is there an STC to turbocharge Ovations? Acclaims are turbocharged, Ovations are not. I am not aware of an STC to change this, but it may exist (the market size is pretty small). 1
Fly Boomer Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 Just now, Hank said: Acclaims are turbocharged, Ovations are not. I am not aware of an STC to change this, but it may exist (the market size is pretty small). I have never heard of one. 1
Jeff Uphoff Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 47 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: I have never heard of one. There's an STC to goose the Ovation up from 280HP to 310HP (mine has it), but I've never heard of one to turbocharge it. Given the turbocharged Bravo/Acclaim models are basically identical to the Ovation save for the engine(s), I can't see the sense in it. --Up. 1
Fly Boomer Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 42 minutes ago, Jeff Uphoff said: There's an STC to goose the Ovation up from 280HP to 310HP (mine has it), but I've never heard of one to turbocharge it. Given the turbocharged Bravo/Acclaim models are basically identical to the Ovation save for the engine(s), I can't see the sense in it. --Up. So if the OP wants a factory turbocharged Mooney, it's K, M, or Acclaim. 1
kortopates Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 The Turbo charged Ovation is the Acclaim Now if one has too much cash than they know what to do with they could approach Tornado Alley to see about getting their turbo normalizing system for the IO-550 fitted to the Ovations IO-550-G/N but this is beyond silly because the Acclaim has an excellent turbo system with a proven record. 2
dkkim73 Posted October 26 Report Posted October 26 @DC_Brasil I just plugged your home airport (Jundiaí) into Foreflight and tried to get a sense of the geography. There're a couple of SIGMETs sitting right over it right now, I have no idea what your usual hazards are. I'm a big fan of turbos now, weather options and other benefits. Would you need FIKI at all? I've never been to Brasil so I have no idea whether you're going to want that. Even at lower altitudes near the coast in the US West, it's helpful, but all depends on your mission. Brasil conjures up visions of beaches, good food and drinks to us Americans... Do you fly into colder areas and mountains elsewhere also? If you don't need FIKI you'll probably have more choices, esp. IIRC some lower-cost Cirruses. I looked hard at the SR22T when shopping a couple years ago (mission/task-driven) and the Acclaim made a lot more sense for me, in part because a FIKI Acclaim Type S was a better cost deal (initial and TCO) than a comparably-capable Cirrus from what I could tell (and I needed to fly high and in the winter, with good climb, for my plans). Also finding K's will be easier. An advantage there would be some of them have higher useful loads from what I've read (the main issue IMHO with a Mooney and the only downside of an Acclaim). Cirrus has a roomier cabin (more "car-like") and higher useful load I think with newer models (you mention the opposite so maybe older ones), also CAPS. Your mention of your wife is not to be taken lightly; you will almost certainly fly more, more often, and with more moral support if your family like the airplane and feel comfortable in it. "Sure honey, go ahead and get the Stormscope..." You mention a desire for glass and express openness to the G1000. Getting a G1000 plane restricts you in upgrades *but* solves many problems up-front; it's a very useable system and provides many features all-in-one. I spent a lot of time looking at this and have no regrets going the G1000 route. All Acclaims have G1000, newer Ovations, newer Bravos (?I think?), and all Ultras have the NXi (outside your price range). If you have to add or signifcantly change glass, budget money, time, and management energy. Cirrus will be slower than a big-engine Mooney but may not be too much of a decrement from a smaller-engine Mooney (it will burn more fuel to do this though!). I'll defer to those who have flow Cirrus, but all the feedback I got jives with my sense the Mooney will be the sportiest of anything you mention. I looked at Bonanzas but it all seemed more expensive, harder to get real FIKI, likely higher TCO. I really, really like my Acclaim. It's done everything I've asked it to, is surprising easy to operate systems-wise, and is very versatile. Drawbacks are useful load and probably short/soft field (I haven't even tried, most of the real backcountry fields near me are more 182/206/taildragger territory). Can't beat it for regional travel, high teens to low FL's (start at FL180 here), can easily beat airlines door-to-door over hundreds of miles while being great fun. HTH D 4
Ragsf15e Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 Can’t really top what @dkkim73 just put down for you. If you’re looking at K models, I might recommend the 252 or Encore since that gets you the MB or SB engine which came with the intercooler and a variable waste gate. In your price range you should find very nice examples of these, some probably are fiki too. The k has the same fuselage as your j, but a turbo 210 or 220hp engine that climbs straight up to 20k or higher. Good useful load and fast in the teens and higher - easy 170-190kts depending on altitude. Also on 10.5-11.5gph. Acclaim is probably faster on more fuel. No Ks came with g1000 though, but some have been fixed up nice! 3
DC_Brasil Posted October 27 Author Report Posted October 27 This forum is amazing! Thanks everyone for the inputs 14 hours ago, kortopates said: The Turbo charged Ovation is the Acclaim Thanks for the clarification. I don't know why I was under the impression Ovations were turbocharged. I'll have than in mind for the research. 20 hours ago, Schllc said: As for the bonanza, finding one in your budget, appointed as specified would he harder. I've looked into Bonanzas but they are pricier and I don't think I've been getting any advantage except for the roomier cabin. 10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: Can’t really top what @dkkim73 just put down for you. If you’re looking at K models, I might recommend the 252 or Encore since that gets you the MB or SB engine which came with the intercooler and a variable waste gate. In your price range you should find very nice examples of these, some probably are fiki too. The k has the same fuselage as your j, but a turbo 210 or 220hp engine that climbs straight up to 20k or higher. Good useful load and fast in the teens and higher - easy 170-190kts depending on altitude. Also on 10.5-11.5gph. Acclaim is probably faster on more fuel. No Ks came with g1000 though, but some have been fixed up nice! That is a sweet panel. Very similar to what I have in my M20J. I am thinking that something newer that my 1990 would be appreciable, thinking about maintenance, wing tank seals, etc. That's why I've been looking into models built after the year 2000. But that may be just personal preference. The Ks I've seen for sale are mostly 1980s or 90s.
DC_Brasil Posted October 27 Author Report Posted October 27 13 hours ago, dkkim73 said: @DC_Brasil I just plugged your home airport (Jundiaí) into Foreflight and tried to get a sense of the geography. There're a couple of SIGMETs sitting right over it right now, I have no idea what your usual hazards are. I'm a big fan of turbos now, weather options and other benefits. Would you need FIKI at all? I've never been to Brasil so I have no idea whether you're going to want that. Even at lower altitudes near the coast in the US West, it's helpful, but all depends on your mission. Brasil conjures up visions of beaches, good food and drinks to us Americans... Do you fly into colder areas and mountains elsewhere also? If you don't need FIKI you'll probably have more choices, esp. IIRC some lower-cost Cirruses. I looked hard at the SR22T when shopping a couple years ago (mission/task-driven) and the Acclaim made a lot more sense for me, in part because a FIKI Acclaim Type S was a better cost deal (initial and TCO) than a comparably-capable Cirrus from what I could tell (and I needed to fly high and in the winter, with good climb, for my plans). Also finding K's will be easier. An advantage there would be some of them have higher useful loads from what I've read (the main issue IMHO with a Mooney and the only downside of an Acclaim). Cirrus has a roomier cabin (more "car-like") and higher useful load I think with newer models (you mention the opposite so maybe older ones), also CAPS. Your mention of your wife is not to be taken lightly; you will almost certainly fly more, more often, and with more moral support if your family like the airplane and feel comfortable in it. "Sure honey, go ahead and get the Stormscope..." You mention a desire for glass and express openness to the G1000. Getting a G1000 plane restricts you in upgrades *but* solves many problems up-front; it's a very useable system and provides many features all-in-one. I spent a lot of time looking at this and have no regrets going the G1000 route. All Acclaims have G1000, newer Ovations, newer Bravos (?I think?), and all Ultras have the NXi (outside your price range). If you have to add or signifcantly change glass, budget money, time, and management energy. Cirrus will be slower than a big-engine Mooney but may not be too much of a decrement from a smaller-engine Mooney (it will burn more fuel to do this though!). I'll defer to those who have flow Cirrus, but all the feedback I got jives with my sense the Mooney will be the sportiest of anything you mention. I looked at Bonanzas but it all seemed more expensive, harder to get real FIKI, likely higher TCO. I really, really like my Acclaim. It's done everything I've asked it to, is surprising easy to operate systems-wise, and is very versatile. Drawbacks are useful load and probably short/soft field (I haven't even tried, most of the real backcountry fields near me are more 182/206/taildragger territory). Can't beat it for regional travel, high teens to low FL's (start at FL180 here), can easily beat airlines door-to-door over hundreds of miles while being great fun. HTH D Wow... that was a very complete answer. Thanks a lot. Let me break it down a little. I very seldom would encounter icing conditions and would not be spending much time around mountains. Luckly, in my region, we have maybe a month or two in which icing is a factor for lower levels, however, if I plan to go higher, it will get colder and I have been taught icing can occur anywhere as long as there's moisture and low temps. So, I am not entirely sure TKS is a requirement although I'd not reject a plane just for having it. I am ok with no TKS and air conditioning. I'd rather have the useful load and not have two additional sources for possible maintenance. I fly mostly IFR and single-pilot, so I am looking into modern avionics to lower the workload. My region is the busiest airspace in all of Latin America, that's why I am looking into big screens, modern autopilot and RNAV capability. I've upgraded my M20J with G3X/GFC500 and it helps A LOT. Since we don't have ADSB mandate in Brazil yet, an active traffic system (TAS or TCAS) will definitely be in my plans. Most Saratogas and Cirruses already come with TAS and nice avionics packages. The Avidyne Entegra on early SR22 or late Saratogas, with GNS430W and Stec 55x autopilots are very capable systems as are the G1000/GFC700s. Modern and recordable digital engine monitoring for me is a must and both Avidyne and Garmin will deliver those. As for the Acclaim I've seen for sale: they all seem to have a smaller useful load as you pointed out. Most of them under 850lbs. Most Turbo SR22 and Saratogas are in the upper 900 or lower 1000s range.
Schllc Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 2 hours ago, DC_Brasil said: As for the Acclaim I've seen for sale: they all seem to have a smaller useful load as you pointed out. Most of them under 850lbs. Most Turbo SR22 and Saratogas are in the upper 900 or lower 1000s range. everything in aviation is a trade off... you said you most often fly alone and ifr, all mooney's will more that meet this mission.
Schllc Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: where is your annunciator panel? Love that arrangment! awesome panel!
dkkim73 Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: If you’re looking at K models, I might recommend the 252 or Encore since that gets you the MB or SB engine which came with the intercooler and a variable waste gate. In your price range you should find very nice examples of these, some probably are fiki too. I was hoping someone like @Ragsf15e would jump in on the subtleties among the K's. Your point about older planes is good, but some of that can be mitigated by thorough due diligence (finding a good example). You could probably optimize quite a bit within your budget. The G3X example is familiar to you and provide some overlapping similiarities with the G1000. 2 hours ago, DC_Brasil said: I fly mostly IFR and single-pilot, so I am looking into modern avionics to lower the workload. My region is the busiest airspace in all of Latin America, that's why I am looking into big screens, modern autopilot and RNAV capability. I've upgraded my M20J with G3X/GFC500 and it helps A LOT. The G1000/GFC700 would be great that way for similar reasons. FWIW getting Flightstream integration (via a bit of a hack/custom install, for the legacy G1000s, documented elsewhere on this forum) would allow you to sync with external units, iPad, etc, which some of the busy East Coast flyers here ( @Schllc) find useful for multiple re-routes over short distances. But even the stock G1000 FMS is capable. You could probably get something similar with additional installs (TXi touch screens, etc) but again at the cost of search, install time, etc. Depends on how much you want turnkey vs. a project. 2 hours ago, DC_Brasil said: Since we don't have ADSB mandate in Brazil yet, an active traffic system (TAS or TCAS) will definitely be in my plans. Most Saratogas and Cirruses already come with TAS and nice avionics packages. I think this can be added to most of the options you mention...? @donkaye, MCFI runs an active traffic system for Northern California on a custom panel. For the G1000 birds, there is a nearly drop-in option that goes into an open space in the avionics rack. They seem to have pre-configured these racks to add TAS, Stormscope, DME, ADF easily. Do you use NDB's still in that part of South America? You could drop one in, too, but probably want to use RNAV more. FYI my useful load with TKS installed is 882lbs per the last factory weighing. For single pilot, I can't imagine any issues... I can load up easily 89 gal of fuel, TKS, survival kit, gadgets, luggage and still loiter for several hours if I have to divert. Taking a couple adults changes the equation with fuel stops etc. DK
dkkim73 Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 13 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: Great example. Very clean, too. Is that large-screen Garmin GPS one of the touch-screen models? Do you achieve an effective integration with the G3X similar to with the PFD/MFD split on the G1000 and similar units?
Ragsf15e Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 2 hours ago, dkkim73 said: Great example. Very clean, too. Is that large-screen Garmin GPS one of the touch-screen models? Do you achieve an effective integration with the G3X similar to with the PFD/MFD split on the G1000 and similar units? Yes, it’s all Garmin and i’d say it’s well integrated. The previous owner did it “for me”. The gps is a gtn750xi, so touchscreen and the g3x is pretty well integrated with both radios and transponder if you’re interested in controlling them that way, although I prefer the old school knobs. The gfc500 is well integrated and works pretty close to the same as your gfc700. As far as pfd/mfd split it’s reasonably close to pfd/mfd. I fly a G1000 Meridian for work and it’s nice having a dedicated mfd, but the setup in the Mooney is close. One drawback is only having the eis available on the “pfd”. It’s fine in the minimized version on the picture I posted, but if you want to see TIT and Volts/amps, you have to split the pfd into eis/pfd. These are first world problems for sure. I do enjoy being able to link in other stuff easily (like a guardian CO monitor that alerts through the pfd). It has the remote audio panel which is ok, but Id prefer the remote transponder and a physical audio panel instead because it “might” allow more options if the gtn750 ever freezes up.
Ragsf15e Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 2 hours ago, Schllc said: where is your annunciator panel? Love that arrangment! awesome panel! Don’t have one. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t though! It wouldn’t be the first thing I found done around the edges of the rules by big name/reputable places on this airplane. The gear lights are still there. Flaps, cowl flaps and trim have mechanical indicators. Everything else goes through the g3x. It’s a 1987… did they have an annunciator panel?
201Mooniac Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said: Don’t have one. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t though! It wouldn’t be the first thing I found done around the edges of the rules by big name/reputable places on this airplane. The gear lights are still there. Flaps, cowl flaps and trim have mechanical indicators. Everything else goes through the g3x. It’s a 1987… did they have an annunciator panel? They did have an annunciator panel but you just need the function, not the panel and if your gear lights were all that was left then you are good. I removed my annunciator panel when I added the Gi 275 EIS as that took everything but gear lights and I used an Eaton style annunciator just for the gear. 1
Schllc Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 Flaps, pitot heat, boost pump, emergency bus, alternator, speed brakes etc. is the panel not required for these?
201Mooniac Posted October 27 Report Posted October 27 26 minutes ago, Schllc said: Flaps, pitot heat, boost pump, emergency bus, alternator, speed brakes etc. is the panel not required for these? In my 1980 M20J, the annunciator did not have positions for flaps, pitot heat, boost pump, emergency bus, or speed brakes, just gear, low fuel, and high/low voltage. (used to also have vacuum before that was removed, ram air before that was removed, and area nav which only seemed to work with the KNS 80). I have a gear annunciator, the low fuel and high/low voltage are covered on the EIS. 1
Ragsf15e Posted October 28 Report Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Schllc said: Flaps, pitot heat, boost pump, emergency bus, alternator, speed brakes etc. is the panel not required for these? My flaps have mechanical indicator, the other stuff is all on the g3x.
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