Looking at Buying Unairworthy M20J for $45k

[Aaviationist]

38 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can’t imagine how anyone could pass judgement on something sight unseen.

You can inspect a cam for corrosion by pulling a couple of jugs, but even then you can’t be sure

My advice is take a competent A&P out to inspect it, you would have to to get a ferry permit anyway.

It could be the deal of the Century (unlikely) or it could be a piece of junk (also unlikely in my opinion)

Corrosion is what kills airplanes, gear rust is very common and easily dealt with, interior spar and fuselage tubing corrosion, not so much.

I’d bet it’s something in between, however it’s very likely to get overly expensive if the plan is to drop it off at a well known and therefore expensive shop, you need an A&P / IA that will “work with you” that is you work under their supervision to the extent of your ability, and you need a good hangar with electricity etc.

In short a good bit of sweat equity, assuming the A&P finds it worth doing.

‘In a couple of hours I can get enough of a look to know if it’s got severe corrosion and I’m not a particularly special A&P/IA.

You didn’t look at the pictures?

[Schllc]

58 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can’t imagine how anyone could pass judgement on something sight unseen.

You can inspect a cam for corrosion by pulling a couple of jugs, but even then you can’t be sure

My advice is take a competent A&P out to inspect it, you would have to to get a ferry permit anyway.

It could be the deal of the Century (unlikely) or it could be a piece of junk (also unlikely in my opinion)

Corrosion is what kills airplanes, gear rust is very common and easily dealt with, interior spar and fuselage tubing corrosion, not so much.

I’d bet it’s something in between, however it’s very likely to get overly expensive if the plan is to drop it off at a well known and therefore expensive shop, you need an A&P / IA that will “work with you” that is you work under their supervision to the extent of your ability, and you need a good hangar with electricity etc.

In short a good bit of sweat equity, assuming the A&P finds it worth doing.

‘In a couple of hours I can get enough of a look to know if it’s got severe corrosion and I’m not a particularly special A&P/IA.

I don’t think you’re wrong at all. That is a potential upside.  You should also be prepared to go worst case as well, or walk away. 

[laytonl]

Did you notice the rust around the fuel tank filler neck?  I suspect the airplane has significant corrosion.  Lee

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I can’t imagine how anyone could pass judgement on something sight unseen.

You can inspect a cam for corrosion by pulling a couple of jugs, but even then you can’t be sure

My advice is take a competent A&P out to inspect it, you would have to to get a ferry permit anyway.

It could be the deal of the Century (unlikely) or it could be a piece of junk (also unlikely in my opinion)

Corrosion is what kills airplanes, gear rust is very common and easily dealt with, interior spar and fuselage tubing corrosion, not so much.

I’d bet it’s something in between, however it’s very likely to get overly expensive if the plan is to drop it off at a well known and therefore expensive shop, you need an A&P / IA that will “work with you” that is you work under their supervision to the extent of your ability, and you need a good hangar with electricity etc.

In short a good bit of sweat equity, assuming the A&P finds it worth doing.

‘In a couple of hours I can get enough of a look to know if it’s got severe corrosion and I’m not a particularly special A&P/IA.

Regardless, does this sound like a good idea for a first time owner that is NOT an A&P?  The OP came here to inquire if he should pursue this...do you honestly think this is going to work out for such a buyer both financially and time spent assuming he wants a plane to FLY?

Would you even recommend that he spent money to have an A&P travel to the plane?  I sure would NOT.  Even if it is not ready to be converted to beer cans it is going to be a project for an A&P, not first time owner. Yeah, my opinion.

[EricJ]

44 minutes ago, laytonl said:

Did you notice the rust around the fuel tank filler neck?  I suspect the airplane has significant corrosion.  Lee

Or the landing gear or the wingtip.   Plus the paint, fiberglass, and windows, etc.

I bought a '77J eight years ago and it had most of the same 1977-vintage King avionics stack, with two KX-170s and a KMA-20, etc., etc.   None of that is going to be reliable or a source of pleasure or pride going forward.   Same with the vacuum system and instruments.   Getting all of that up to some semblance of a reliable standard, including a servicable transponder that can do the required ADS-B, etc., will be at least $60k and more likely a lot more than that.   Doing a more reasonable job of fully modernizing that panel will approach or pass $100k.    And that's not touching any other part of the airplane, much of which can be assumed to need work that will not be inexpensive, especially considering the corrosion hints shown in the pics.

Somebody who can do, and wants to do, all or mostly all of their own labor could salvage this airplane and probably make something nice of it if there aren't any fatal corrosion surprises, but it's not going to be economical or save any money compared to a flyable example.   Just paying the storage for the time it would take to rehab it is going to be significant.   It can certainly be done, but it's going to take the right person willing to bite the financial bullet if needed.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Or the landing gear or the wingtip.   Plus the paint, fiberglass, and windows, etc.

I bought a '77J eight years ago and it had most of the same 1977-vintage King avionics stack, with two KX-170s and a KMA-20, etc., etc.   None of that is going to be reliable or a source of pleasure or pride going forward.   Same with the vacuum system and instruments.   Getting all of that up to some semblance of a reliable standard, including a servicable transponder that can do the required ADS-B, etc., will be at least $60k and more likely a lot more than that.   Doing a more reasonable job of fully modernizing that panel will approach or pass $100k.    And that's not touching any other part of the airplane, much of which can be assumed to need work that will not be inexpensive, especially considering the corrosion hints shown in the pics.

Somebody who can do, and wants to do, all or mostly all of their own labor could salvage this airplane and probably make something nice of it if there aren't any fatal corrosion surprises, but it's not going to be economical or save any money compared to a flyable example.   Just paying the storage for the time it would take to rehab it is going to be significant.   It can certainly be done, but it's going to take the right person willing to bite the financial bullet if needed.

Maybe the owner should donate it to AOPA?

[varlajo]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Maybe the owner should donate it to AOPA?

For additional G100UL testing?? 

[Shadrach]

I’ve seen this plane in the flesh many times. It’s not for you.  DM me if you want details.

[Jackk]

As someone who works in the industry 

 

Depends

This could be a heck of a deal, or it could be scrap, you won’t know till you get a good inspection by a good wrench

 

I will say if you are a drop it off at a big name shop and call me when it’s done, this is not the plane for you, and frankly ownership (unless you make 3M plus a year) is not for you.

Another large factor is if it was in a hangar and if it was by salt water, if it was hangared and not by salt, sitting isn’t a huge deal.

Funny story, had a buddy who built a engine for a guy, dude didn’t pay up and this engine was under a cover at this shop for a long time, he ends up selling it years later for high price.  It was viewed as “new” “fresh” etc.

 Now had he simply bolted that engine to a plane, pushed it into the same corner of the same hangar, now it “sat” and is worth scrap value to some.

laughable really 

 

 Get a good trusted mechanic to look at it, be there with him, roll up your sleeves and get elbows deep into it, might pay off for you 

 

Anyone who doesn’t turn most of the wrenches on their own equipment, I would not bother listening to on this 

Edited Friday at 03:44 AM by Jackk

[Kelpro999]

It might be OK if the photos were before any work was performed. What was the result of each inspection? Looking at the fuel cap and landing gear it most likely has lower wing spar cap corrosion. 

[cliffy]

Not just NO but HELL NO!

This will scrap out for under 10K in the end. 

You can bet the steel tube cabin cage is heavily rusted

and you can't see it unless you remove the interior.

Run don't walk away from this money pit

[ArtVandelay]

As someone who works in the industry 
 
Depends
This could be a heck of a deal, or it could be scrap, you won’t know till you get a good inspection by a good wrench
 
I will say if you are a drop it off at a big name shop and call me when it’s done, this is not the plane for you, and frankly ownership (unless you make 3M plus a year) is not for you.
Another large factor is if it was in a hangar and if it was by salt water, if it was hangared and not by salt, sitting isn’t a huge deal.
Funny story, had a buddy who built a engine for a guy, dude didn’t pay up and this engine was under a cover at this shop for a long time, he ends up selling it years later for high price.  It was viewed as “new” “fresh” etc.
 Now had he simply bolted that engine to a plane, pushed it into the same corner of the same hangar, now it “sat” and is worth scrap value to some.
laughable really 
 
 Get a good trusted mechanic to look at it, be there with him, roll up your sleeves and get elbows deep into it, might pay off for you 
 
Anyone who doesn’t turn most of the wrenches on their own equipment, I would not bother listening to on this 

It wouldn’t be a deal if it was free. Even if it had minimal corrosion with paint, avionics, engine work, etc required it would take more money than what you could sell it for.

[Echo]

Contact Shad. I respect his opinion. These always confuse me. I would love the yokes. Found a pair with shafts for $700 on first E. There is salvage value there, but it sits waiting…Owner is hoping for a rube. Don’t be that guy. 

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, Echo said:

Owner is hoping for a rube. Don’t be that guy. 

^^^ THIS ^^^

[A64Pilot]

I find many comments interesting, like the old King stuff isn’t any good. That old stuff is very reliable, easily and cheaply replaced and very repairable. Vacuum instruments have been the standard for more years than any of us have been alive, vacuum systems are reliable if you replace the pump on schedule. And that latest greatest glass will be obsolete in five years and likely won’t be supported in ten, almost all modern electronics use custom IC chips, that once they are no longer available, become unrepairable. 

Not all of us fly hard IFR anymore, I don’t and don’t “need” glass. Most I see buying it, don’t, they want it because it’s cool, and that’s fine, but most don’t have the need, they desire.

What I find interesting is that very often those that say vacuum is unsafe, think nothing of flying old engines well past TBO, and I’ve met many that are spending all their money on “glass” when their engines are old and tired.

It all depends on what you desire the airplane for, many would tell you that ALL Mooney’s are nothing more than antiques, like buying a Model A as your daily driver.

My J model is an 81, roughly I think about the average age for a Mooney, but that makes it 44 yrs old? That is awfully old for any machine.

Most Mooney’s are OLD as most GA single engine pistons are.

You really have no idea what that pretty airplane your looking at with its new interior, panel and paint looked like five years ago. 

Now I’m the first one to advise to buy the airplane you want and not to buy one with the idea your going to make it what yiu want because almost always that’s more expensive, but not every one has the cash.

IF you have a good working relationship with an A&P/IA, the place to do the work and are willing to put the time in it, often yiu can save $$$ in restoring an old aircraft.

But more and more people like that are building Experimentals now.

[201Steve]

It’s weird to me that people say, “if your an A&P or know an A&P who’d be willing to work with you…. It could be a good value”. 
 

My time isn’t free. I can work on my airplane with my time, or I can use my time to generate dollars. You aren’t getting a deal committing huge amounts of time to something. You are paying for it with your time, which could easily be used to generate money somewhere else. 
 

I do owner preventive maintenance a lot on my airplane. I do it for 3 reasons: I enjoy it, It’s less effort (we don’t have many available shop options close by), I become functionally more familiar with my airplane (and thus, safer). It has very little to do with being “cheaper”. It’s not. 

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

It’s weird to me that people say, “if your an A&P or know an A&P who’d be willing to work with you…. It could be a good value”. 
 

My time isn’t free. I can work on my airplane with my time, or I can use my time to generate dollars. You aren’t getting a deal committing huge amounts of time to something. You are paying for it with your time, which could easily be used to generate money somewhere else. 
 

I do owner preventive maintenance a lot on my airplane. I do it for 3 reasons: I enjoy it, It’s less effort (we don’t have many available shop options close by), I become functionally more familiar with my airplane (and thus, safer). It has very little to do with being “cheaper”. It’s not. 

 And that’s where it comes to what’s your time worth 

Many folks today majorly overvalue both what their time is worth and what they are worth.

 
  Lots of folks would be better off if they were more useful and less lazy

 

Recently I saved about a grand doing the brakes on one of my cars, took me like an hour or so, in my own comfy garage with music on and a nice beer.

 

   I’m man enough to admit my time is not worth that, where I can work from home, on my own time, while listening to music and enjoying a beer and it pays $1,000.00hr, PLEASE tell me.  

 

Unless I made over $2,080,000.00 per year, I can’t afford to be lazy and not to that brake job.

 

I think the future in America belongs to those who are not afraid to roll up their sleeves.  Unless you’re making a couple mil a year, that’s the only real way you’re going to live the American dream and not be beholden 

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m salaried with my day job. I should be retired BTW. The only side gig I have is working on airplanes. So I could work on airplanes so I could pay somebody to work on my plane.

[Hank]

53 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m salaried with my day job. I should be retired BTW. The only side gig I have is working on airplanes. So I could work on airplanes so I could pay somebody to work on my plane.

So retire already and work on your plane!  

[N201MKTurbo]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

So retire already and work on your plane!  

It’s a long story. I worked for the giant biomed company (Roche) for 20 years till 2010. Then worked for the automation company doing missile and semiconductor projects for 10 years. I was planning on retiring 3 years ago. A month from my retirement a guy I used to work with at Roche said they were forming a new biotech startup. He asked me if I would lead their software development. I told him HELL NO, I was so done with life in the fast lane. He said “What would it take?”. I gave him a crazy high number. And damn it, he said OK. Then after a year or so I did something really stupid. I invested a shit ton of money into this enterprise. Now I’m one of those private equity investors. I asked the CEO for the day off today. He said he didn’t care if I took the day off as long as I came back next week. So I have to hang around until this enterprise is successful. We are close. Two very major huge companies are interested in acquiring us. Then I will have that PC12 and the Mooney will be the play plane.

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Then I will have that PC12

PC24?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

PC24?

That would seriously punch my cheap bastard card.

[Fly Boomer]

53 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That would seriously punch my cheap bastard card.

But very cool airplane.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’d consider buying this airplane under 3 conditions 

1. plane was already at my airport

2.  I had a lot of extra time

3.  The owner would take my offer for 5k

[Ted_G]

Thanks all for your insight and opinions. I have decided to pass on it. I just thought I might be able to get a good deal on it but since I'm not an A&P that most likely is not the case. Appreciate everyone who posted.