Scottsdale Mooney Mishap

[xftrplt]

Quote: jetdriven

If you are landing it flaps up and 90 MPH as a matter of standard procedure, you are NOT doing it right.

[Becca]

Quote: robert7467

I guess we all have our oponions about flaps, full stops, touch and goes... It all depends on the instructor. I am very confident in my instructor with his 1000's of hours of instructing and his pasion for anything that flies. He has flown everything from Helicopters to Airbus, and he is even an A&P instructor as well. Trust me, he has been teaching me with flaps, speed control, etc.. But I have found, that flaps on a mooney dont work for me.... Now that I am comfortable with the Mooney, and soloing, I might try using flaps, trimming it out, and coming to a full stop.... but in the meantime, no flaps, touch and goes helped me out alot.

[Becca]

duplicate.

[KFlyer]

Robert, your instructor is putting my insurance rates at risk (i.e. when you have an accident my rates will go up).  Any chance you'll give us his name?

[PTK]

Quote: robert7467

That is totaly not cool...

[robert7467]

Trust me, I know I need to learn how to trim aircraft, and use flaps. Now that I am touch and go'd to death, I will work in trim, flaps, and complete stop. As far as instructors are concerned, I believe mine is one of the best. I have flown with at least 5 different instructors, and mine is very competent, and pays close attention to safety. Example, whenever I look for traffic, he will sneak in and adjust the heading indicator to make sure I am adjusting regularly. Most of my time, flaps were used. I am just saying I hate them for touch and goes. Now that I can confidently land the aircraft safely, I will work on trim,flap full stop landings.

[KFlyer]

Trust me...your instructor is not one of the best, just better than worse ones you've had (and you've only had five, which is kind of cute).  He can't "pay close attention to safety" and then go out and instruct you on how to set yourself up for the most common Mooney mishaps. Don't believe me, check out the NTSB reports for your make and model.  The biggest is weather, but overshoots and loss of control on the roll-out are close behind.  Most of us here have known someone who's been in a accident, so it scares us when you brush aside advice from the world's most experienced Mooney pilots.

[Immelman]

Robert, you are taking a beating on this thread which is a little sad, but I digress. I do agree, though, that you need to get comfortable with landing your airplane with no flaps (IMO, an abnormal which you train for, but seldom use as SOP), half flaps, full flaps, power on approch, power off approach.. make it your goal to master that machine and all of its features; to be able to use all the tools in your toolbox to make a stabilized approach at various glide paths, using proper speed for the configuration and weight, and proper trim technique so that the airplane "wants to do the right thing" without you having to muscle it on final.

Here's a tip: If you choose to do T&Gs in your Mooney, they will be easier - and safer - if you can make the approach and landing with half flaps (that is, at the takeoff position). You will need to make a nose-down trm adjustment on the climb out after the "go", but it should not be huge. You will not need to move your hand off of the throttle on the ground roll to mess with the flaps. You will then not need to look down in the cockpit durign the landing roll either. If you do make an approach where you come in a bit high and elect to use full flaps (which I think is a good sound practice), then in that case commit to a full-stop landing, or if runway length permits, a stop and go where you can stop, look down, reconfigure for takeoff, and go once again.

 

 

[robert7467]

Thank you Immelman, you are right, I need to learn to master every configuration of the airplane, and thats exactly what I am working on. Right now, I feel most comfortable with no flaps, and now that I have mastered that, its time to try working on flaps, half flaps.

At least I can land the plane safely, and confidently with my current configuration, and now is the time to slowly get comfortable with other configurations.

I dont care if I get bashed on this forum, but as far as my instructor is concerned, I have a slight issue with that. The reason I am so confident in him, is he knows what the hell he is doing.

[BigTex]

Quote: robert7467

I dont care if I get bashed on this forum, but as far as my instructor is concerned, I have a slight issue with that. The reason I am so confident in him, is he knows what the hell he is doing.

[Bennett]

Immelman's advice is sound. There is a lot of collective wisdom within this forum (and a bit of BS too), but having owned two Mooneys for a total in excess of 20+ years, I fall into the camp that T&Gs are not as useful as Stop and Goes as a learning tool when you have a long enough runway. I think you are landing (or setting up for your T & Gs) way too fast, and while we all have situations in which we use minimal or no flaps in landing, that is really not good practice. Please be careful, and give some credence to the high time Mooney pilots on the forum. Finally, most of us, although we have been flying for decades, consider ourselves still in the learning mode, and understand that the advice offered on the forum is presented to aid you, and to keep you safe. Attitude is everything in flying, so please listen to the heartfelt advice from those "who have been there and done that".

[fantom]

Quote: robert7467

I feel most comfortable with no flaps, and now that I have mastered that, its time to try working on flaps, half flaps.

At least I can land the plane safely, and confidently with my current configuration...

The reason I am so confident in him, is he knows what the hell he is doing.

[robert7467]

Trust me I am..... I go to this forum for everything Mooney. I appreciate advice, but not bashing.

Anyways, anyone want to buy a Mooney?

66 m20c

Around 100 hrs on engine and prop. Clean inside and out. I will have more specs, and info soon

[Becca]

Quote: robert7467

Thank you Immelman, you are right, I need to learn to master every configuration of the airplane, and thats exactly what I am working on. Right now, I feel most comfortable with no flaps, and now that I have mastered that, its time to try working on flaps, half flaps.

At least I can land the plane safely, and confidently with my current configuration, and now is the time to slowly get comfortable with other configurations.

I dont care if I get bashed on this forum, but as far as my instructor is concerned, I have a slight issue with that. The reason I am so confident in him, is he knows what the hell he is doing.

[robert7467]

So what's the merit of the T&G in your case, why do them?

Landings in a Mooney were always difficult for me, and touch and goes gives me the oportunity to do them over and over again. Its all about the picture for me, and repetetion helps me get it.

But now, I am past the point of touch and goes, and I need to work on trim, flaps, and full stops.... It just took me a while to get that picture.

Now all I need is night, cross country, and navigation and I am good to go.

Yes my instructor has been teaching me with flaps. Without him in the plane, I am really calm, collective, and bored of touch and goes...

By this weekend, I will master full flap landings if I feel compfortable with it. People learn in different ways, and if I am safe, and confident with no flaps, then so be it, as long as I am safe.... But I am not stopping there, and I will have that plane mastered in as long as it takes.... I am in no big hurry, all I care about is being safe, and enjoying myself.

[fantom]

Quote: Becca

Everyone learns, at 10,000 hrs they are still learning

[Becca]

Quote: robert7467

So what's the merit of the T&G in your case, why do them?

Landings in a Mooney were always difficult for me, and touch and goes gives me the oportunity to do them over and over again. Its all about the picture for me, and repetetion helps me get it.

But now, I am past the point of touch and goes, and I need to work on trim, flaps, and full stops.... It just took me a while to get that picture.

Now all I need is night, cross country, and navigation and I am good to go.

Yes my instructor has been teaching me with flaps. Without him in the plane, I am really calm, collective, and bored of touch and goes...

By this weekend, I will master full flap landings if I feel compfortable with it. People learn in different ways, and if I am safe, and confident with no flaps, then so be it, as long as I am safe.... But I am not stopping there, and I will have that plane mastered in as long as it takes.... I am in no big hurry, all I care about is being safe, and enjoying myself.

[Becca]

Quote: fantom

Gee, who might you be referring to, Becca?

Even if just a bit hard headed after 10K

[Parker_Woodruff]

please have a look at the nosegear links I posted prveiously.

[robert7467]

"Does your instructor know you aren't using flaps when soloing? "

He should, I told him thats what I felt most comfortable with....

keep in mind, that most of my landings has been with flaps.

 

Attached is a pic of me, and my bad ass flight instructor. He is barely cracking a smile becuase he is so tough.

He can fly king air, jets, helicopters, airbus, gyroplane.... If it flies, he can fly it. The only thing he hasnt flown was a spaceship...

He is a true bad ass. No wife, no kids, becuase he is married to his airplanes. He has also taught me the art of being an airport bum.

 

[robert7467]

Attached

[xftrplt]

Quote: Becca

[Hank]

Quote: robert7467

He has also taught me the art of being an airport bum.

[xftrplt]

Quote: robert7467

"Does your instructor know you aren't using flaps when soloing? "

He should, I told him thats (sic.) what I felt most comfortable with....

keep in mind, that most of my landings has (sic.) been with flaps.

[Antoni Deighton]

I wasn't going to chime in, but I also agree with Jim about the mindset that comes with using words such as "perfect", "mastered" and "science". I've had the good fortune to fly a wide variety of machines, from tailwheel J-3 cubs, to L-29 jets as well as rotorcraft and gliders. I don't think I've ever made a landing that couldn't have been better, and I've been able to learn from all of them. Finally if you ever do some tailwheel time (and you should!), you'll learn that an airplane hasn't landed until the engine's off and the chocks are in. T&Gs don't teach you to land, they only teach procedures.  I've done them before and I'll do them again, but I'm well aware of why I'm doing them and the risks involved.