Lasar & Mooney

[1980Mooney]

Did you see Don Maxwell's post on Facebook Mooney Pilots this evening?

• "Johnny has done his best. He has done this for no salary and has battled a major health issue. He also recently got married. I've seen the books, with the Kerrville overhead it cant make it making parts. Hard to say but its the truth. Hopefully Lasar's hat has a big rabbit in it. I wish them well as we all should."

We have known for a long time that they can't make it making airplanes.  Many have suspected that they can't make it making just parts either.  So what is left?....

Edited July 10 by 1980Mooney

[Thedude]

Why don't they do maintenance as well? Maybe working on used planes is a different beast, but that seems to be the only other market. They'd be competing with Maxwell's in that area I would assume, maybe they should merge? Idk maybe this is dumb, but seems interesting to me

[1980Mooney]

6 minutes ago, Thedude said:

Why don't they do maintenance as well? Maybe working on used planes is a different beast, but that seems to be the only other market. They'd be competing with Maxwell's in that area I would assume, maybe they should merge? Idk maybe this is dumb, but seems interesting to me

It has been previously reported that they do.  

 

[kortopates]

Sadly it is the end of Mooney as we knew it. Lasar will be also taking over parts production as i understand it, but it could be some time for them to get PMA approval. As far as i know, they still haven’t got back PMA approval to make their unique STC’d parts.


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[kortopates]

It has been previously reported that they do.  
 

The service center at the factory closed earlier in the year while a friends Acclaim was getting some upgrades.


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[GeeBee]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, you have no more evidence their pricing is fair and that they are 'making a modest living' than what you accuse me of.

Of course you completely ignored my point about LASAR having a MONOPOLY.  You can tout the tired "that is capitalism" all you like, but there are good reasons for anti-trust laws.  I guess you think the government should never have imposed any?

Because of FAA approval just about everything in aviation is a monopoly. The only time it is not is when a PMA player comes into the market. For a lot of things Mooney, there is not going to be a PMA player. So no matter who owns the means of production there will be a monopoly, that is the nature of the regulatory structure aviation operates within.

[Fritz1]

Change is the only constant, estimate factory parts sales at $5M per year max, organization has to fit that number, estimate worldwide fleet at 6000 aircraft, there are probably 600 aerostars left, they are supported by a small outfit in Idaho, therefore Mooeys will continue to be supported, Lasar has done a good job so far, this is a logical development

[GeeBee]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Did you see Don Maxwell's post on Facebook Mooney Pilots this evening?

• "Johnny has done his best. He has done this for no salary and has battled a major health issue. He also recently got married. I've seen the books, with the Kerrville overhead it cant make it making parts. Hard to say but its the truth. Hopefully Lasar's hat has a big rabbit in it. I wish them well as we all should."

We have known for a long time that they can't make it making airplanes.  Many have suspected that they can't make it making just parts either.  So what is left?....

Univair makes a pretty good living making obsolete parts. I hope Lasar can copy their model.

[Schllc]

On 7/10/2025 at 7:50 AM, Fritz1 said:

Change is the only constant, estimate factory parts sales at $5M per year max, organization has to fit that number, estimate worldwide fleet at 6000 aircraft, there are probably 600 aerostars left, they are supported by a small outfit in Idaho, therefore Mooeys will continue to be supported, Lasar has done a good job so far, this is a logical development

Aerostar is a bit different. They own the TC, and provide complete support for the aircraft. There are some supply issues with things like turbos, and air conditioning parts, but so far the salvage market has filled the gap. It isn’t cheap…

mooney may have 10x the planes active, but the number of parts is probably 10x as well because of the variants in models. 
most of the Aerostar airframes use the the same parts. 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

Change is the only constant, estimate factory parts sales at $5M per year max, organization has to fit that number, estimate worldwide fleet at 6000 aircraft, there are probably 600 aerostars left, they are supported by a small outfit in Idaho, therefore Mooeys will continue to be supported, Lasar has done a good job so far, this is a logical development

Let's take your estimate and do a "reality check".  The $5 million per year max in "factory parts" would be in the form of sales to MSC's before they mark them up for retail sale to owners and A&P's.  Assuming a 40% mark-up, that would be about $7 million in Mooney parts spread over a fleet of 6,000 aircraft.  That would mean that everyone, every year is purchasing on average nearly $1,200 in parts made by the factory. 

•   How many owners here are buying $1,200 per year in parts made by Mooney?  That excludes the accordion intake baffles, Rochester wing fuel gauges and other third party parts which are just sourced from others with a mark-up.

I think the answer is not many.   It has been many years since I actually purchased a part made by the factory.  I am sure Mooney makes big sales in slugs when someone attempts to repair structural corrosion or repairs a gear-up landing but how often does that actually happen vs parting out the damaged plane?

I am skeptical that sales will be that high.  And as @Schllc points out these sales have to be over a fleet of considerable variation.  The economics must be daunting and as Don Maxwell posted on Facebook, having seen the books, Mooney cannot support its overhead selling its current level of parts.  So costs have to go down and/or prices have to go up.  Probably both will happen.

Edited July 10 by 1980Mooney

[Ron McBride]

How many parts do we need from Mooney to keep our plane’s airworthy.  On my F, I needed gear motor gears, front cowling to fuel controller duct, interior door handle and pc servo’s.  All other parts were aircraft spruce.

i did not gear the plane up so no sheet metal or corrosion problems.  
 

Ron

[DCarlton]

24 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

How many parts do we need from Mooney to keep our plane’s airworthy.  On my F, I needed gear motor gears, front cowling to fuel controller duct, interior door handle and pc servo’s.  All other parts were aircraft spruce.

i did not gear the plane up so no sheet metal or corrosion problems.  
 

Ron

Over the 20 years I've owned my F, the only parts I can think of made to Mooney specs were flap hinges, a door handle upgrade kit, and the intake duct (twice).  The PC system was designed by Brittain.  I bought salvaged door handle brackets.  Everything else was airframe STCs, engine or avionics related.  Fortunately for the F's, they made a bunch; I'm crossing my fingers that there will be a steady stream of salvage parts.  

I'm actually wondering about ALL of the technical data necessary to specify, produce and qualify parts.  I'm assuming that will need to be transferred to LASAR too (or a copy somehow).  I'm imaging a bunch of big flat paper files (some of which have been scanned).  

[Greg Ellis]

Just out of curiosity, what has to stay in tact at Mooney in order to keep the Type certificate valid, or does that even matter?  If they transfer all parts, etc to Lasar, they still have to keep something going for the TC, correct?  And just a side note, I have owned my C model for 17 years now and the only thing I remember coming directly from the factory was a door hinge for the passenger door.  I do recall my mechanic that ordered it saying it was the last one Mooney had on the shelf and that was about 15 years ago.

[1980Mooney]

15 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That would require capital to carry some inventory, but with a well-written business plan they could have pulled together the money for that.

 

13 hours ago, GeeBee said:

 In addition there is the fundamental value of money. If I spend 100K to buy a 1 year inventory, I want an ROI of at least 30% which means I have to make up that 100k to account for overhead (building, grounds, shipping,  labor, insurance, taxes). IOW after all those expenses are paid, I want free and clear 30K otherwise there is no point in being in business. I don't see the folks at LASAR getting rich, in fact they seem to be making a modest living. As to charging whatever the market will bear, that is capitalism in a nutshell. Sorry to break it to you but this is how business works, not just LASAR but everyone. No one is in business so you can putt-putt around in your airplane. Sure they love airplanes just like you but their first responsibility is to those who put up the capital for the business. This is not a hobby, it is business.

 

57 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

How many parts do we need from Mooney to keep our plane’s airworthy.  On my F, I needed gear motor gears, front cowling to fuel controller duct, interior door handle and pc servo’s.  All other parts were aircraft spruce.

i did not gear the plane up so no sheet metal or corrosion problems.  

But it only takes one missing part to ground a plane and make it unairworthy if it is a critical part and is not immediately obtainable.

The real problem is the fact that no-one wants to pay for the cost to keep inventory around for the size of the market demand and the diversity of parts.  @GeeBee highlighted the cost.  That is why the world has moved to "just in time inventories".  And think about our market and compare it to classic 1960's cars.

• While Mooney made 4,929 airplanes during the 1960's, Ford made nearly 2.4 million Mustangs during 1964 (midyear)-1969, a span of less than 6 years.
• The Mooney market cannot support multiple suppliers and large inventories without higher prices and bigger returns.
  • We keep wondering why the Factory does not stock large inventories to immediately support AOG aircraft, but why not blame the MSC's?  Why don't the MSC's, who make most of their return on repairs, keep inventories anymore?  Cost is the reason. Stranded capital tied up in slow moving inventory.

 

[Echo]

9 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

Change is the only constant, estimate factory parts sales at $5M per year max, organization has to fit that number, estimate worldwide fleet at 6000 aircraft, there are probably 600 aerostars left, they are supported by a small outfit in Idaho, therefore Mooeys will continue to be supported, Lasar has done a good job so far, this is a logical development

A good job?  Over a year to get dukes gear manufactured. That’s unacceptable!

[Echo]

6 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Just out of curiosity, what has to stay in tact at Mooney in order to keep the Type certificate valid, or does that even matter?  If they transfer all parts, etc to Lasar, they still have to keep something going for the TC, correct?  And just a side note, I have owned my C model for 17 years now and the only thing I remember coming directly from the factory was a door hinge for the passenger door.  I do recall my mechanic that ordered it saying it was the last one Mooney had on the shelf and that was about 15 years ago.

Unacceptable!

[Echo]

This is the United States of America. Owners of vintage Mooney’s have a handful of grounding components. That it takes over a year to produce a gear the size of a quarter is totally unacceptable. My God. There are 60 owners that need the gear. Get it done!

[bonal]

Looking at the LASAR website there is no mention of the new policy for parts.  Also weird is the phone number is still the same as it was when they were still in lake county CA.  Don’t know if Dan is still handling parts locally but the fact he was the true GOAT when it came to knowledge on parts.  I know LASAR went through some tough times when they first moved to rancho down near Sacramento but it looks as though things have improved for them lately.  Know idea who is on their staff hopefully they have some good knowledgeable people.  Paul Loewan and Dan would be hard to match when it comes to Mooney knowledge.  Looks like the factory is pretty much throwing in the towel.  Hopefully this will make things better not worse.  Glad my D has the J bar. 

[bonal]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

But it only takes one missing part to ground a plane and make it unairworthy if it is a critical part and is not immediately obtainable.

The real problem is the fact that no-one wants to pay for the cost to keep inventory around for the size of the market demand and the diversity of parts.  @GeeBee highlighted the cost.  That is why the world has moved to "just in time inventories".  And think about our market and compare it to classic 1960's cars.

• While Mooney made 4,929 airplanes during the 1960's, Ford made nearly 2.4 million Mustangs during 1964 (midyear)-1969, a span of less than 6 years.
• The Mooney market cannot support multiple suppliers and large inventories without higher prices and bigger returns.
  • We keep wondering why the Factory does not stock large inventories to immediately support AOG aircraft, but why not blame the MSC's?  Why don't the MSC's, who make most of their return on repairs, keep inventories anymore?  Cost is the reason. Stranded capital tied up in slow moving inventory.

 

Lots of vintage cars out there as you point out but it’s also much easier to produce something that doesn’t have all the regulations and required certification that our vintage fleet has.  Even something as simple as an intake duct is considered unobtainable.  Sadly I think the long term survival of general aviation will depend on the experimental.  Soon even the other more popular brands will suffer the same fate.  Can you obtain bonanza ruddervators lots of V tails out there. Just sayin.

beech 

[Schllc]

34 minutes ago, bonal said:

Lots of vintage cars out there as you point out but it’s also much easier to produce something that doesn’t have all the regulations and required certification that our vintage fleet has.  Even something as simple as an intake duct is considered unobtainable.  Sadly I think the long term survival of general aviation will depend on the experimental.  Soon even the other more popular brands will suffer the same fate.  Can you obtain bonanza ruddervators lots of V tails out there. Just sayin.

beech 

Just for a point of reference….

15 or so years ago when I was shopping for my first plane I happened upon the Rockwell commander. There were a lot of intriguing things about that airframe that made me look hard. Then the internet showered me with doom and gloom about all of the planes being grounded any day now.  The factory has been closed a LOT longer than 15 years, and there were a lot less of them made than mooney’s, yet they are still flying..

Im not trying to spin this into great news, I’m just saying that while the means of the end is pretty clear, the date it truly occurs is much less identifiable, and I don’t see it happening in my flying days an beyond so I’m pretty positive about all of this. 
 

hopefully I’m right!

[GeeBee]

Yes, the Commander Aircraft Corporation does a good job of supporting the fleet. It is also a dang nice airplane and a dream to fly. My only complaint was too much plastic in the interior. The worst of the series was the 112TC and the best was the 114. Pair a 114 with a turbo and it is a very nice machine. I expect Mooney to go the same way, only I think better because of a larger fleet size.

[kortopates]

Looking at the LASAR website there is no mention of the new policy for parts.  Also weird is the phone number is still the same as it was when they were still in lake county CA.  Don’t know if Dan is still handling parts locally but the fact he was the true GOAT when it came to knowledge on parts.  I know LASAR went through some tough times when they first moved to rancho down near Sacramento but it looks as though things have improved for them lately.  Know idea who is on their staff hopefully they have some good knowledgeable people.  Paul Loewan and Dan would be hard to match when it comes to Mooney knowledge.  Looks like the factory is pretty much throwing in the towel.  Hopefully this will make things better not worse.  Glad my D has the J bar. 

Dan didn’t move to Oregon but stayed and is working out of his home, so parts are still being managed in CA while their service shop is in OR.


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[EricJ]

My main concern will be airframe parts, especially skins, which the factory has tooling and drawings for but I doubt Lasar will.    

[201Mooniac]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

My main concern will be airframe parts, especially skins, which the factory has tooling and drawings for but I doubt Lasar will.    

Agreed, especially those parts that are formed using jigs and pressing forms.

[NickG]

7 minutes ago, EricJ said:

My main concern will be airframe parts, especially skins, which the factory has tooling and drawings for but I doubt Lasar will.    

Yikes! Thats worrying.