At 64 I want that Mooney

[Mooney Fan]

Hello All- New guy here. I grew up in the 60's in the back seat of my Dad's MK-21 and later his Chaparral. In the late 90's I rented a Mooney 70' M20C from SZP aviation and put 55 hours in it. Loved flying that Mooney. 

Over the past 7 years I've owned and sold a Cherokee 140, Cessna 140 and yesterday I sold and delivered my C-150 up to its buyer in Wisconsin passing 1000 hours in my logbook doing it. Now I have an empty hangar and if I'm going to get that Mooney time is runnig short. Kind of a bucket list thing I guess and I argue with myself if its practical. My mission these days doesn't really justify it but I just enjoy flying.

I have my eyes on one that's on the market but not sure about all the things I don't know about the older Mooneys. Its a 65' Super 21. 3751TT and 619 SMOH and prop. Priced at 75K.  I realize a good pre-buy is a must but then there is my age. I received a quote a year ago at $2200 a year for an 80K Mooney. And I can assume the cost wil just increase each year until they nail me hard at 70. 

Any pro tips on buying one of these fine airplanes?

Thx

MF

Edited March 3 by Mooney Fan

[Rwsavory]

You might find that your insurance premiums go down a bit as you get more recent retract time. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

How much retractable gear time do you have right now?

If you're with the right insurer for this aircraft before age 70, I don't expect that you'd receive a very large premium increase upon reaching age 70.  There'd be some increase around that age, but not enough to drive an aircraft purchase decision.

[A64Pilot]

I bought mine at 64, in my neighborhood I’m young, we have people in their 80’s that fly. I’m 66 now.

We also the other day had a Commercial Airline pilot age 63 who felt poorly after helping a neighbor pour concrete who went home to lay down and died of a heart attack.

One neighbor in his 70’s flies the “Villages” Jets.

So age isn’t necessarily the determining factor, some lucky people at 70 are in better shape than some unlucky ones in their 50’s. It depends where you are on that spectrum.

As far as Insurance it may go down as you acquire hours, but I think if your not instrument rated, getting that rating may help the most.

I pay about $2200 for 125K on my J. It went down 7% this year but don’t think it had anything to do with me, I think insurance has hopefully peaked and beginning to ease a bit, but that’s just hoping and guessing.

When I can no longer be insured assuming I still want to fly and feel able to do so I’ll either forego insurance or switch aircraft. In truth my Mooney is a bear to get in and out of for me now, a C-182 is looking more and more attractive, or an LSA amphib maybe, but their insurance is stupid high.

[Pinecone]

Another thing to consider is to insure for liability only.  Unless you have a lien from financing.

I bought my Mooney (first plane), at 67.

Talk to Parker, good guy.

[Mooney Fan]

8 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

You might find that your insurance premiums go down a bit as you get more recent retract time. 

 

7 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

How much retractable gear time do you have right now?

If you're with the right insurer for this aircraft before age 70, I don't expect that you'd receive a very large premium increase upon reaching age 70.  There'd be some increase around that age, but not enough to drive an aircraft purchase decision.

Thanks for the replies. I have used Travers for years. When I called to cancel my C-150 policy we talked about a ball park figure on insurance. They said around $1800-$2000 a year on 65 K. I would self insure the amount above that.  Interesting conversation. She said with the more retract time (still only 55/hrs) my rate wouldn't necessarily increase every year with age as I'm building more complex time. And at reaching 70 is not a show stopper.  She did say some carriers, not all, will not insure under a Basic Med and would require a yearly Class III. She emphasized, "some"

It was a positive conversation..

Edited March 3 by Mooney Fan

[Mooney Fan]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I bought mine at 64, in my neighborhood I’m young, we have people in their 80’s that fly. I’m 66 now.

We also the other day had a Commercial Airline pilot age 63 who felt poorly after helping a neighbor pour concrete who went home to lay down and died of a heart attack.

One neighbor in his 70’s flies the “Villages” Jets.

So age isn’t necessarily the determining factor, some lucky people at 70 are in better shape than some unlucky ones in their 50’s. It depends where you are on that spectrum.

As far as Insurance it may go down as you acquire hours, but I think if your not instrument rated, getting that rating may help the most.

I pay about $2200 for 125K on my J. It went down 7% this year but don’t think it had anything to do with me, I think insurance has hopefully peaked and beginning to ease a bit, but that’s just hoping and guessing.

When I can no longer be insured assuming I still want to fly and feel able to do so I’ll either forego insurance or switch aircraft. In truth my Mooney is a bear to get in and out of for me now, a C-182 is looking more and more attractive, or an LSA amphib maybe, but their insurance is stupid high.

Thanks. No doubt relative to health and how it varies. My agent said the same thing about building ours can offset age.

IRT to getting in and out of the Mooney. I have been shoe horning in and out of a C-150 the past 2 years. lol...

Edited March 3 by Mooney Fan

[Mooney Fan]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Another thing to consider is to insure for liability only.  Unless you have a lien from financing.

I bought my Mooney (first plane), at 67.

Talk to Parker, good guy.

I forgot about him. I have read some of his comments about insurance. If I get serious, I'll seek him out.

[Hank]

Go for it! No one gets a do over in life.

@Parker_Woodruff has been insuring my C for a while now, I think the last 4 or 5 years with Basic Med. I'm just two years younger than you.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Mooney Fan said:

 

Thanks for the replies. I have used Travers for years. When I called to cancel my C-150 policy we talked about a ball park figure on insurance. They said around $1800-$2000 a year on 65 K. I would self insure the amount above that.  Interesting conversation. She said with the more retract time (still only 55/hrs) my rate wouldn't necessarily increase every year with age as I'm building more complex time. And at reaching 70 is not a show stopper.  She did say some carriers, not all, will not insure under a Basic Med and would require a yearly Class III. She emphasized, "some"

It was a positive conversation..

Forget the self insure for amounts above that. 

The reason is if the repair bill will exceed about 60% of the insured value they will write you a check for the insured amount at which time it’s their airplane and they will auction it off. I saw someone lose their Maule that way by being underinsured.

I don’t know about the 60% number it’s just what I heard maybe it’s 80%, but either way if they total the airplane it’s theirs, not your to repair.

I think it may be better to be uninsured than under insured

[Mooney Fan]

10 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

How much retractable gear time do you have right now?

If you're with the right insurer for this aircraft before age 70, I don't expect that you'd receive a very large premium increase upon reaching age 70.  There'd be some increase around that age, but not enough to drive an aircraft purchase decision.

Thanks for the contact. Only have 57 hours retract. 55 of it in a Mooney Ranger.

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Mooney Fan said:

 

Thanks for the replies. I have used Travers for years. When I called to cancel my C-150 policy we talked about a ball park figure on insurance. They said around $1800-$2000 a year on 65 K. I would self insure the amount above that.  Interesting conversation. She said with the more retract time (still only 55/hrs) my rate wouldn't necessarily increase every year with age as I'm building more complex time. And at reaching 70 is not a show stopper.  She did say some carriers, not all, will not insure under a Basic Med and would require a yearly Class III. She emphasized, "some"

It was a positive conversation..

Definitely get up to speed on how the insurance works vs the “self insurance above a certain value”.  With an airplane it doesn’t really work that way.  Insure for its actual value or they will total it, pay your low $$ and salvage it while making money.  Insure too high and they’ll pay to fix what should be totaled and you’ll have a plane with significant damage history.  Tread carefully here.

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Mooney Fan said:

I forgot about him. I have read some of his comments about insurance. If I get serious, I'll seek him out.

I just renewed one airplane with him and bound to move the Mooney.  He got me a slight decrease in premium on both (even with me hitting 70), but also 1 million SMOOTH on both airplanes.  He even got me non-owners coverage FOR FREE.

Another recommendation to NOT under insure.  Too many planes get totaled because the value of the plane as salvage is more than the insured value.   You have a $200,000 airplane and insure it for $100,000, the insurance company would be HAPPY to pay you $100,000, sell your plane, and pocket $100,000. 

And people doing avionics upgrades need to pay CLOSE attention to their insured value.  Recent high end avionics are worth close to retail and move quickly.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I just renewed one airplane with him and bound to move the Mooney.  He got me a slight decrease in premium on both (even with me hitting 70), but also 1 million SMOOTH on both airplanes. 

we want upgraded pics of the new ride as, IIRC, the last time we saw it in a shipping container.

[Pinecone]

Here are a couple.

[Hank]

56 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Here are a couple.

Nice! Chipmunk or CAP?

[TheAv8r]

I would definitely encourage you to do it! 

I would also encourage you to get some Mooney-centric training from someone who really knows the airplanes. You're going from flying very simple, fixed-gear, slow airplanes to flying a rocket ship that requires a lot more finesse to fly and that comes with a learning curve that may be harder for someone your age, or might not be, totally depends on how you learn . In addition to the gear system, your planning around airspeeds, slowing the plane down, it's also just the speed you have to think to stay ahead of the airplane is going to be drastically different than your C150 or Cherokee. Having a good 10-15 hours with a Mooney CFI will help you a lot as you transition over. You might want to get a few hours in a Mooney before pulling the trigger on buying one to see how it feels.

I have a '65 E - they're awesome airplanes. My favourites of the Mooneys, still nimble and crisp to fly as a short-body but they climb like a rocket ship and are fast and economical. At 65% power, 20 degrees LOP, mine does 142-145kts TAS depending on altitude at 7.7gph. That's my favourite place to run it for XCs. Speeding it up to 75% power at 150deg ROP I see 155kts TAS. 

As far as what to look for, sounds like you already know the basics when looking at planes so will focus on the Mooney things:

• When were the gear pucks last replaced? Those are age limited and semi-expensive to replace
• Fuel tanks - are they bladders or still a wet wing? If a wet wing, when was it last resealed? If > 8yrs, you might have a reseal in your near future ($5k or so)
• Does the prop hub have the 100hr AD? It's an annoying AD if you fly a lot, the -B hub is well worth it. 
• Corrosion - particularly looking at the spar caps, and under the rear seats with the interior out, and the tubular steel cage, those are the most prone areas to getting it. 
• Inspect the induction boot - this is a mostly unobtanium part right now if it tears, so you'll want to ensure it's in good condition

[TheAv8r]

I think this is the plane you're looking at: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2437216&s-type=aircraft

Several things to dive into deeper with the seller:

"Recent top overhaul in September of 2024, Crankshaft replaced during top overhaul."

• You cannot replace the crankshaft simply by taking the cylinders off the plane. The case has to be split. So they split the case, replaced the crankshaft, but didn't touch the camshaft or tappets, and put new cylinders on it. This is some kind of bastardized half-overhaul, the camshaft on Lycomings is also infamous for spalling and corroding early so since that wasn't replaced and this engine wasn't flying, it could be next.
• OH in 2005 with 600hrs on it = 30hrs/yr flown on average, which isn't great too, maybe related to why they replaced the cylinders.
• Need to better understand the story of why they did this and why the split the case but didn't do an actual overhaul. Major patchwork on engines without actually doing a major tells me they're cutting corners to save costs, and since the aircraft sales broker did it, they probably are trying to do the minimum to get the plane in a sellable condition.

"Gear up landing 1965, off airport landing 1981, minor airframe repairs 1989 and 1991"

• All of these are old, so probably not a problem, but that's a fair bit of repairs, worth digging into the logs to see why the repairs were done, how extensive they were, and that they were done correctly.

"New fuel tanks 1996"

• No other mention of a reseal is made, and they don't specify if these are bladders, if they are not, I could almost guarantee you're in for a reseal soon.

 

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

I think this is the plane you're looking at: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2437216&s-type=aircraft

Several things to dive into deeper with the seller:

"Recent top overhaul in September of 2024, Crankshaft replaced during top overhaul."

• You cannot replace the crankshaft simply by taking the cylinders off the plane. The case has to be split. So they split the case, replaced the crankshaft, but didn't touch the camshaft or tappets, and put new cylinders on it. This is some kind of bastardized half-overhaul, the camshaft on Lycomings is also infamous for spalling and corroding early so since that wasn't replaced and this engine wasn't flying, it could be next.
• OH in 2005 with 600hrs on it = 30hrs/yr flown on average, which isn't great too, maybe related to why they replaced the cylinders.
• Need to better understand the story of why they did this and why the split the case but didn't do an actual overhaul. Major patchwork on engines without actually doing a major tells me they're cutting corners to save costs, and since the aircraft sales broker did it, they probably are trying to do the minimum to get the plane in a sellable condition.

"Gear up landing 1965, off airport landing 1981, minor airframe repairs 1989 and 1991"

• All of these are old, so probably not a problem, but that's a fair bit of repairs, worth digging into the logs to see why the repairs were done, how extensive they were, and that they were done correctly.

"New fuel tanks 1996"

• No other mention of a reseal is made, and they don't specify if these are bladders, if they are not, I could almost guarantee you're in for a reseal soon.

 

 

My 2c, ask for copies of the logs, very often the guy who wrote the ad didn’t have a clue what they are taking about. It could have all been well done and maybe it wasn’t. Until you get the logs you don’t know.

In my opinion don’t worry much about repairs in the logbook, be very wary of those that aren’t. By that I mean have someone who knows what they are doing look for oversized rivets etc that hint at repairs. Since the requirement that you only have to keep logs for one year has been so widely disseminated, and that log book pages aren’t numbered. I know of a couple of pages that were lost when the razor blade cut them out suddenly it’s a “No damage” airplane.

They can’t lose a filed 337 though so pay the buck or whatever the CD costs from the FAA.

[Pinecone]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

Nice! Chipmunk or CAP?

CAP-10

Funny story.  I got my CFI to teach aerobatics at KFDK.  They had a Super Decathlon (which I learned in) and were waiting for another airplane to show up, so needed a second instructor.   I got my CFI, but with only one airplane, got no time.  The deal was that I was ONLY to instruct tailwheel and aerobatics.  So after about 6 months of waiting for the new plane to show up next week, I moved to 0W3 (where I got my private) to instruct.

It seems that the airplane did show up eventually.  And was used to instruct aerobatics.

That airplane is the one I now own.

 

[Mooney Fan]

20 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

I think this is the plane you're looking at: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2437216&s-type=aircraft

Several things to dive into deeper with the seller:

"Recent top overhaul in September of 2024, Crankshaft replaced during top overhaul."

• You cannot replace the crankshaft simply by taking the cylinders off the plane. The case has to be split. So they split the case, replaced the crankshaft, but didn't touch the camshaft or tappets, and put new cylinders on it. This is some kind of bastardized half-overhaul, the camshaft on Lycomings is also infamous for spalling and corroding early so since that wasn't replaced and this engine wasn't flying, it could be next.
• OH in 2005 with 600hrs on it = 30hrs/yr flown on average, which isn't great too, maybe related to why they replaced the cylinders.
• Need to better understand the story of why they did this and why the split the case but didn't do an actual overhaul. Major patchwork on engines without actually doing a major tells me they're cutting corners to save costs, and since the aircraft sales broker did it, they probably are trying to do the minimum to get the plane in a sellable condition.

"Gear up landing 1965, off airport landing 1981, minor airframe repairs 1989 and 1991"

• All of these are old, so probably not a problem, but that's a fair bit of repairs, worth digging into the logs to see why the repairs were done, how extensive they were, and that they were done correctly.

"New fuel tanks 1996"

• No other mention of a reseal is made, and they don't specify if these are bladders, if they are not, I could almost guarantee you're in for a reseal soon.

 

Indeed. That is the plane but is has gone under contract with another buyer. So the search continues. Thanks for the sage advice.

[Mooney Fan]

21 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

I would definitely encourage you to do it! 

I would also encourage you to get some Mooney-centric training from someone who really knows the airplanes. You're going from flying very simple, fixed-gear, slow airplanes to flying a rocket ship that requires a lot more finesse to fly and that comes with a learning curve that may be harder for someone your age, or might not be, totally depends on how you learn . In addition to the gear system, your planning around airspeeds, slowing the plane down, it's also just the speed you have to think to stay ahead of the airplane is going to be drastically different than your C150 or Cherokee. Having a good 10-15 hours with a Mooney CFI will help you a lot as you transition over. You might want to get a few hours in a Mooney before pulling the trigger on buying one to see how it feels.

I have a '65 E - they're awesome airplanes. My favourites of the Mooneys, still nimble and crisp to fly as a short-body but they climb like a rocket ship and are fast and economical. At 65% power, 20 degrees LOP, mine does 142-145kts TAS depending on altitude at 7.7gph. That's my favourite place to run it for XCs. Speeding it up to 75% power at 150deg ROP I see 155kts TAS. 

As far as what to look for, sounds like you already know the basics when looking at planes so will focus on the Mooney things:

• When were the gear pucks last replaced? Those are age limited and semi-expensive to replace
• Fuel tanks - are they bladders or still a wet wing? If a wet wing, when was it last resealed? If > 8yrs, you might have a reseal in your near future ($5k or so)
• Does the prop hub have the 100hr AD? It's an annoying AD if you fly a lot, the -B hub is well worth it. 
• Corrosion - particularly looking at the spar caps, and under the rear seats with the interior out, and the tubular steel cage, those are the most prone areas to getting it. 
• Inspect the induction boot - this is a mostly unobtanium part right now if it tears, so you'll want to ensure it's in good condition

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Yes, its been 30 years since I've had any Mooney time (55hrs in a 70' Ranger) so I will need to knock the dust off my complex skills. The bullet points you made are noted and I'll incorporate them into my evaluations. 

My search continues. 

If anyone sees a good one out there I may have missed give me a shout. Budget 80K.

Thanks