aviatoreb Posted January 18 Author Report Posted January 18 4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: I am looking at AirPower Inc right now. They are quoting a TSIO-520-NBR (Factory Rebuild) full price without Core at $92,699.00. If you have a Core then they give up to $22,000 Credit for a net price of $70,699.00. However a Core may be reduced in value due to condition. I looked up crankshaft prices and I think your engine uses a 649898 Continental CRANKSHAFT. Those sell new for about $10,200 online. The fact that your engine is in pieces now and not running with a worn out crank may render it worthless for a Core trade in. Once Penn Yan tore it down you are more than half pregnant. If you contemplate a Factory engine with Core trade then you pretty much need a binary decision up front. Even then you may not have gotten full Core value. Core Condition Core returns must be active, assembled, complete, running, and repairable condition with genuine OEM crankcase and crankshaft. Engines that are incomplete or which are found to be inoperable may be returned to the customer, freight collect, and no credit will be issued. Cores must be returned with a valid data plate. All engine cores must include the logbook. No core can be returned that has been disassembled in any respect or that has any parts removed or replaced other than “in-service” parts replacement without prior written approval. Continental Aerospace Technologies (CAT) Specific Requirements Returned cores must be sent directly to CAT and be identified with Distributor’s Name (Air Power), Returned Good Authorization (RGA) number, engine core invoice number, and must include the logbook entry for the aircraft from which the engine is removed. In the case of an engine core returned to CAT that is determined to be missing parts, CAT may at its sole discretion accept the engine core and reduce the applicable engine core credit by the list price in effect for any missing part(s) at the time of engine core receipt. Any core returned to CAT that is worn or damaged beyond economical repair shall be subject to reduced engine core credit or rejection. Well thanks for looking that up for me. It seems clear as day that I am screwed... The most depressing part isnt that this will cost a lot more - even if yes I am not excited about that - its that I will end up with a crappy Continental engine instead of the one I thought I had ordered which was a quality overhaul from a quality shop with several aftermarket items to my specification including better cylinders, better camshaft, better spark (electronic ignition) and better injectors. So I will pay more money for a sigicantly inferior product. has at least - the quality of continental valves gotten a bit better than the low quality control of a few years ago? Quote
exM20K Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 36 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: has at least - the quality of continental valves gotten a bit better than the low quality control of a few years ago? I’ll let you know in 50 or a hundred hours. My cylinders are a balanced set from continental. I’m pretty sure that is what they use in the overhauls. My preference would have been to send six new jugs to Seth Record, but the timing didn’t work out. -dan 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 18 Author Report Posted January 18 1 minute ago, exM20K said: I’ll let you know in 50 or a hundred hours. My cylinders are a balanced set from continental. I’m pretty sure that is what they use in the overhauls. My preference would have been to send six new jugs to Seth Record, but the timing didn’t work out. -dan Hi Dan, Im sorry - I was being cranky (double entendre huh since my crankshaft is making me cranky), and I didnt mean to speak poorly of yours or anyone else's decision or need to make a decision to go continental all the way - which I chance at this stage I will do exactly that. When did you get a new engine? What does Seth Record do? Quote
jetdriven Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 46 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: Well thanks for looking that up for me. It seems clear as day that I am screwed... The most depressing part isnt that this will cost a lot more - even if yes I am not excited about that - its that I will end up with a crappy Continental engine instead of the one I thought I had ordered which was a quality overhaul from a quality shop with several aftermarket items to my specification including better cylinders, better camshaft, better spark (electronic ignition) and better injectors. So I will pay more money for a sigicantly inferior product. has at least - the quality of continental valves gotten a bit better than the low quality control of a few years ago? If you want the best overhaul get it from Powermasters engines in Tulsa. We’ve quoted a few overhauls at Penn Yann and they can’t articulate why they’re always the highest quote but the fact they say superior lifters are better than DLC factory Lycoming lifters gives me pause. Now that the core is disassembled mostly the core charge is baked into the factory engine price, not sure about Continental but once a Lycoming is disassembled there’s no core credit. Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 23 minutes ago, jetdriven said: If you want the best overhaul get it from Powermasters engines in Tulsa. We’ve quoted a few overhauls at Penn Yann and they can’t articulate why they’re always the highest quote but the fact they say superior lifters are better than DLC factory Lycoming lifters gives me pause. Now that the core is disassembled mostly the core charge is baked into the factory engine price, not sure about Continental but once a Lycoming is disassembled there’s no core credit. I tried really hard to get a quote from powermasters - I have heard such good things about their quality and their prices too by rumor. I called probably a dozen and a half times and emailed many times, and I got Bill on the phone 3 times over 6 months and each time he is super friendly and he promised a quote but I never did get one. So eventually I gave up. That also scared me to send an engine to a place on how long it would take if I couldnt get a quote. I would still consider them if I ever got an explicit quote and also a guess at timeline. I don't mean to diminish the quality of their work. I am probably out of luck at this stage no matter what with them anyway arent I? Penn Yan's price was competitive with several shops I asked near the bottom, and close enough to bottom that with their good reputation and proximity to the R&R shop well that's the way I went. Can you be more explicit - what did you mean by baked into the factory engine price? I presume you mean it has zero core value now that it is disassembled as far as factory is involved? I will also call RAM on Monday since they were one of the shops I quoted back in April - they were offering core exchange so I presume that means they are a possible source for outright purchase to consider something besides factory, since I bet they are big enough they have all the parts to build up. I do like they use the RAM cam (obviously) and superior cylinders - so that would also get me closer to the outcome I was hoping for. Do you think powermaster would do an outright purchase - if they wont take any of my core? Or would repair my core in its crappy state it is? Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 1 hour ago, aviatoreb said: How do I sell them? Is there a third party distributor? Im close enough to Penn Yan, about 3.5 hrs drive - I supposed I could borrow a trick or get someone to help, I could go get it - but then what would I do with it in my hangar? Contact the nearest EAA chapter and tell them what you have. 1 Quote
exM20K Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 57 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: Hi Dan, Im sorry - I was being cranky (double entendre huh since my crankshaft is making me cranky), and I didnt mean to speak poorly of yours or anyone else's decision or need to make a decision to go continental all the way - which I chance at this stage I will do exactly that. When did you get a new engine? What does Seth Record do? No offense taken, and no apology warranted. Seth is the guy who machines cylinders for Gann and other well-regarded engine shops. His website is herePerformance Aircraft. Really personable guy. He ports, polishes, balances, and grinds the valve seats with precision. His work will void the CMI warranty, but really, who cares? If a cylinder has to come off my Acclaim, it’s potentially a new V-band clamp plus all the labor. In my dream world, I’ll buy an engine core, send it to Gann, Powermaster, Victor, or similar, and have them build me an engine to a higher standard that I can swap on my schedule. But with a little luck and frequent flying, that is a few years away. For now, I just topped a 1750 hour engine, which might seem nuts to some, but it works for me (I hope). I’m not planning on selling the Acclaim any time soon, so a top not being accretive to the plane’s value matters little to me. -dan 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 1 hour ago, aviatoreb said: I tried really hard to get a quote from powermasters - I have heard such good things about their quality and their prices too by rumor. I called probably a dozen and a half times and emailed many times, and I got Bill on the phone 3 times over 6 months and each time he is super friendly and he promised a quote but I never did get one. So eventually I gave up. That also scared me to send an engine to a place on how long it would take if I couldnt get a quote. I would still consider them if I ever got an explicit quote and also a guess at timeline. I don't mean to diminish the quality of their work. I am probably out of luck at this stage no matter what with them anyway arent I? Penn Yan's price was competitive with several shops I asked near the bottom, and close enough to bottom that with their good reputation and proximity to the R&R shop well that's the way I went. Can you be more explicit - what did you mean by baked into the factory engine price? I presume you mean it has zero core value now that it is disassembled as far as factory is involved? I will also call RAM on Monday since they were one of the shops I quoted back in April - they were offering core exchange so I presume that means they are a possible source for outright purchase to consider something besides factory, since I bet they are big enough they have all the parts to build up. I do like they use the RAM cam (obviously) and superior cylinders - so that would also get me closer to the outcome I was hoping for. Do you think powermaster would do an outright purchase - if they wont take any of my core? Or would repair my core in its crappy state it is? If you had someone work the cylinders on a reman as @exM20K suggested, you’d have pretty much what you planned on, and with zero time. 1 Quote
Paul Thomas Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 3 hours ago, aviatoreb said: How do I sell them? Is there a third party distributor? Im close enough to Penn Yan, about 3.5 hrs drive - I supposed I could borrow a trick or get someone to help, I could go get it - but then what would I do with it in my hangar? There aren't that made experimental running continental engines, even less with a big continental. I'd make a list and post it on those forums. 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: If you had someone work the cylinders on a reman as @exM20K suggested, you’d have pretty much what you planned on, and with zero time. So that would involve taking shipment of the engine, then immediately removing the cylinders probably before the engine is even installed and doing a top? Quote
GeeBee Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 If you want cylinder work, contact Carlus Gann at Gann Aviation in LaFayette, GA. He is the engine master for a lot of NASCAR teams and his cylinders breathe really nice. I had an O-320 B2B rated 160hp that turned 173 with his cylinders. The engine ran like a top. 1 Quote
1980Mooney Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: If you had someone work the cylinders on a reman as @exM20K suggested, you’d have pretty much what you planned on, and with zero time. 1 hour ago, aviatoreb said: So that would involve taking shipment of the engine, then immediately removing the cylinders probably before the engine is even installed and doing a top? I suspect if you do that then your Continental Warranty (18 months) will also immediately be void. When you add up the cost of extra shipping, Extra labor to pull and reinstall all cylinders (even on a crated engine), the cost of the new cylinders (seriously doubt that you will break even - even in this market waiting for cylinders - you offer no warranty on the cylinders that you are "reselling" even though they are new). Then you have the risk that the "new" new cylinders were installed correctly. And you said earlier you wanted a Superior camshaft - that would mean splitting the case - even more cost and issues. If you have any infant mortality issues with your overhaul both Continental and Superior will just shrug their shoulders and say it is your and the other company's problem. And then you have the extended down time of shipping to a second shop for a "Top OH" on the Rebuild from Cont. This sounds completely nuts. If the custom build specs on overhaul are most important to you (ignition, cylinder, cam, etc), then why don't you just bite the bullet and continue with Penn Yan? Yes it will cost more than a Rebuild Cont from AirPower, but you will be spending way more money (and importantly way more time) if you go this second route. 2 Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 47 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: I suspect if you do that then your Continental Warranty (18 months) will also immediately be void. When you add up the cost of extra shipping, Extra labor to pull and reinstall all cylinders (even on a crated engine), the cost of the new cylinders (seriously doubt that you will break even - even in this market waiting for cylinders - you offer no warranty on the cylinders that you are "reselling" even though they are new). Then you have the risk that the "new" new cylinders were installed correctly. And you said earlier you wanted a Superior camshaft - that would mean splitting the case - even more cost and issues. If you have any infant mortality issues with your overhaul both Continental and Superior will just shrug their shoulders and say it is your and the other company's problem. And then you have the extended down time of shipping to a second shop for a "Top OH" on the Rebuild from Cont. This sounds completely nuts. If the custom build specs on overhaul are most important to you (ignition, cylinder, cam, etc), then why don't you just bite the bullet and continue with Penn Yan? Yes it will cost more than a Rebuild Cont from AirPower, but you will be spending way more money (and importantly way more time) if you go this second route. I wasnt about to do a top on an off the shelf Continental engine. I was just asking if that was what he had been suggesting. I will be talking to Penn Yan tomorrow. I may well continue with the Penn Yan overhaul even if it is becoming cost ineffective compared to continental, since I am less excited by a Conty plain vanilla engine based on quality control and details. I am not sure yet. I will also call a few top engine companies to see if they have something for outright purchase available soon. My shopping conditions are dramatically different at this stage vs when I was shopping in April and the issue was to overhaul what I would send them. I am having a hard time imagining that a serviceable case and serviceable crankshaft cant be obtained and put into Penn Yan's hands for something very competitive with buy an engine outright from continental. Someone on here suggested they saw my crankshaft runs $10k new. And there must be some out there used. And how much is a case? The continental engine reman zero time is 30k more than the Penn Yan overhaul I originally priced, so at this stage anything less than 30k increment for a Penn yan build to continue with be cheaper and more importantly, a better engine in my book. The entry in the book that says zero time is worth very little to me since I wasnt planning on selling my airplane. 2 Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 On 1/18/2025 at 10:35 AM, 1980Mooney said: Generally about the only used part on a Continental Factory Rebuild is the case. And many feel a used case free of cracks is more likely to be trouble free. A Factory Rebuild is a much better option financially. Back in June @PT20J said when discussing a Cont. TSIO-360 "Hardly ever makes sense to buy a new engine. What's the lead time and cost on a factory rebuilt engine?" By the way - why would a used case free of cracks be more likely trouble free than new? Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 23 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: I looked up crankshaft prices and I think your engine uses a 649898 Continental CRANKSHAFT. Those sell new for about $10,200 online. Where did you find that? Can you link me? I am still confused - if a new crankshaft is $10k, and I saw on another website that a new case is $14k (no core needed), and surely there is good serviceable stuff out there, how can it be that at this stage it is more cost effective to go with a new engine? Never mind its not what I want. Quote
MarkD34M Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 Erik: When I overhauled my IO550 in the Ovation, I used a "6 pack" of balanced cylinders from Continental and they have been good for 500 hours without issue. This was 4 years ago so maybe the quality has improved. Hopefully I didn't jynx myself so hopefully Dan and I will get longevity on these units. Best of luck with the decisioning. I also use Weber. Good gyuys. Mark 2 Quote
Brian2034 Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 On 1/19/2025 at 3:03 PM, aviatoreb said: 1 Quote
exM20K Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 5 hours ago, aviatoreb said: The continental engine reman zero time is 30k more than the Penn Yan overhaul I originally priced, Just make sure of what accessories are included in each. The Continental O/H includes a comprehensive set of stuff. Now, if you have a 300 hour old turbo, exhaust, starter adapter, whatever, maybe the soup-to-nuts new doesn’t add value. That said….. Price differences in the 10-20 AMU range will be lost in the sands of time if you will own the plane for another N years/hours. Surely more so than getting the overhaul you want by the shop you want. -dan 1 Quote
Rmfriday Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 Have you looked into purchasing this set up? I don’t know much about “rockets” but I have heard there are several unique parts involved. this might be a good opportunity to get some apart parts and have what is hopefully a good core. Or do a prop strike inspection and fly on this engine until you can get yours sorted out… https://baspartsales.com/mooney-m20k-rocket-305-conversion-kit-continental-tsio-520-nb-prop-struck/ 2 Quote
jetdriven Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 Crank cases work harden then crack when they get a bunch of hours on them, and then more hours they have, the more likely they are to crack. And especially if it’s been welded on before. I wouldn’t risk it. Aluminum work hardens and cracks. A new case is what you want. The continental and superior lifters are both garbage. They both spall and pit and then work on the cam and I don’t know what to say except for at about 5 to 10 years, you may have to change them all again. We’ve had two low time continentals just come through our shop that they each needed a complete full set of lifters. Pitting and spalling on all 12. The service letter from Continental says you can let a lot of this minor pitting and spalling go, but I’m not putting it back in an engine. Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 20 Author Report Posted January 20 3 hours ago, jetdriven said: Crank cases work harden then crack when they get a bunch of hours on them, and then more hours they have, the more likely they are to crack. And especially if it’s been welded on before. I wouldn’t risk it. Aluminum work hardens and cracks. A new case is what you want. The continental and superior lifters are both garbage. They both spall and pit and then work on the cam and I don’t know what to say except for at about 5 to 10 years, you may have to change them all again. We’ve had two low time continentals just come through our shop that they each needed a complete full set of lifters. Pitting and spalling on all 12. The service letter from Continental says you can let a lot of this minor pitting and spalling go, but I’m not putting it back in an engine. Byron so what is your suggestion for lifters? And ok - where I am now - what would you recommend as my course. If you dont want to speak freely pm me? Quote
Gee Bee Aeroproducts Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 Lycon in visalia California Powermasters OK Crazy money for a piston engine, i wonder what is material cost vs all product liability Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 20 Author Report Posted January 20 8 hours ago, Gee Bee Aeroproducts said: Lycon in visalia California Powermasters OK Crazy money for a piston engine, i wonder what is material cost vs all product liability Hi Gee Bee - what's the suggestion with those companies? Are you suggesting they might have an overhaul exchange/out right purchase available? Quote
1980Mooney Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 (edited) 22 hours ago, aviatoreb said: Where did you find that? Can you link me? I am still confused - if a new crankshaft is $10k, and I saw on another website that a new case is $14k (no core needed), and surely there is good serviceable stuff out there, how can it be that at this stage it is more cost effective to go with a new engine? Never mind its not what I want. Your specific engine and appropriate crankshaft, conrod, bearing,etc part numbers are listed on the next to last line on page 6 below: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=40464099&FileExtension=.PDF&FileName=Service Bulletin - SB00-3A-Master.PDF Cont crankshaft set - part no . 649898 https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/continentalnewcrankshaft_07-08865.php https://www.airpowerinc.com/649898?srsltid=AfmBOorlxr3hcT9PckYJD6iSw8P5lq-kp4a9Ovm5S3IR5XkNx614uWFH https://www.aviationpartsinc.com/product/tcm-crankshaft-damper-asm-649898/ Edited January 20 by 1980Mooney 1 Quote
Gee Bee Aeroproducts Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 Search all salvage companies and engine shops 1 Quote
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