My Engine overhaul isn't going very well... :-/. Advice please.

[aviatoreb]

Well my engine is at Penn Yan Aero for overhaul and I just got back a very disappointing report after disassembly.  Both the cam shaft and the case have problems making overhaul much more expensive than original estimate and actually not even cost competitive compared to complete replacement.  So they are a good shop and have made the recommendation that I should go with factory new or at least factory zero time.

Of course I am disappointed that it will be lots more expensive but I guess that's how it goes with airplanes - they are stupid expensive.  

Even more so I am disappointed since I had spec'ed some improvements that I wont be able to get now - I had specified superior cylinders and camshaft.  I really think continental cylinders are crap, especially the valves, and I am not happy about this one bit that I will pay lots more and get what I consider an inferior engine.

Any ideas where I might source an engine from a good shop ready to go?  I texted victor and I know their engines will be nice but I bet a replacement from them will be dramatically more expensive than new - if they have one.  Still ... what else is out there?  

Most likely I guess I will be sporting a factory new engine in several months.  :-/. Oh - and whats the mooneyspace collective wisdom on factory rebuilt vs factory new?  is factory rebuilt what they mean by "zero time"?  Mind you this is factory rebuilt I presume out of bin parts because it wont be from my engine (which already was a factory rebuilt from many years ago).

Your collective wisdom and thoughts will be most appreciated.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

What’s wrong with your case? Who said they cannot overhaul it?

Did they send your cam out for regrind and it failed the regrind?

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What’s wrong with your case? Who said they cannot overhaul it?

Did they send your cam out for regrind and it failed the regrind?

This is what the report said - it came with pictures but I just have to trust the experts.  It can be fixed but not more cost effectively than just replacing so they say and they are suggesting I go with AirPower inc in Texas where one sources factory engines.

"Regrettably, two essential components have
been deemed non-serviceable, rendering an
overhaul economically unfeasible.
The crankshaft is at its maximum limits, measuring .010 undersized, and requires
significant repair due to excessive wear and pitting. Although a used crankshaft
was found, the total cost of repairs and necessary replacement parts would
surpass the value of a replacement engine option from Continental.
Furthermore, the crankcase is below serviceable limits, necessitating extensive
repairs that involve heating, welding, and subsequent machining, along with the
replacement of all studs and sleeving of the lifter bores. If a used replacement
crankcase were available, an overhaul would still not be cost-effective at current
market values and availability."

 

[ArtVandelay]

My case had a crack (it was leaking oil) around the alternator area, was told it couldn’t be repaired due to location and size. I just bit the bullet and got a new one. The difference between a reconditioned one and new was about $1000, I thought it was a no brainer, also had a new camshaft installed.

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

My case had a crack (it was leaking oil) around the alternator area, was told it couldn’t be repaired due to location and size. I just bit the bullet and got a new one. The difference between a reconditioned one and new was about $1000, I thought it was a no brainer, also had a new camshaft installed.

The difference in price between new and reconditioned factory overhaul is $9500 for a TSIO520NB.  So nothing to sneeze at - but I am considering new - I just want to hear collective wisdom since these are big numbers and I want to make a considered opinion.

That said - I am really bummed to be paying more for what I consider an inferior engine.  Factory new is not as good as top tier overhaul including better cylinders with properly seating valves - both of which are not a given from factory new cylinders.  Or has the factory finally started producing reasonable cylinders quality control?  And the cam wont be as cool.

[exM20K]

RAM may have an engine for you. Did AirPower quote a lead time? 
I just topped my 1750 hour engine, but before I did, we pulled a cylinder from each side to get a look at the cam and lifters.

sorry to hear of your misfortune.  
-dan

[1980Mooney]

37 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

The difference in price between new and reconditioned factory overhaul is $9500 for a TSIO520NB.  So nothing to sneeze at - but I am considering new - I just want to hear collective wisdom since these are big numbers and I want to make a considered opinion.

That said - I am really bummed to be paying more for what I consider an inferior engine.  Factory new is not as good as top tier overhaul including better cylinders with properly seating valves - both of which are not a given from factory new cylinders.  Or has the factory finally started producing reasonable cylinders quality control?  And the cam wont be as cool.

As you highlight, you have a 305 Rocket conversion from Rocket Engineering with a TSIO-520-NB.  Rocket always preferred to use Factory Rebuild Continentals unless the owner demanded a New engine (same with the IO-550-A conversions in the J).  Check you engine logs - I bet your current engine was a Factory Rebuild.  Look for an "R" at the end the Serial number.

Generally about the only used part on a Continental Factory Rebuild is the case.  And many feel a used case free of cracks is more likely to be trouble free. A Factory Rebuild is a much better option financially.  Back in June @PT20J said when discussing a Cont. TSIO-360 "Hardly ever makes sense to buy a new engine. What's the lead time and cost on a factory rebuilt engine?"

Read this:  Aircraft Maintenance: Know your engine overhaul options - AOPA  They say "I spoke with the team at Continental Aerospace Technologies to understand the company’s approach to factory-rebuilt engines and was surprised to learn how few used parts actually go into a Continental factory-rebuilt engine in practice. "

Edited 8 hours ago by 1980Mooney

[N201MKTurbo]

You said you had a bad camshaft. The report says you have a bad crankshaft. Big difference. The case repair should be about $2000. A lot cheaper than a new case. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You said you had a bad camshaft. The report says you have a bad crankshaft. Big difference. The case repair should be about $2000. A lot cheaper than a new case. 

Right on - I seem to more than once transpose those words but I do quite know there is a difference.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

RAM may have an engine for you. Did AirPower quote a lead time? 
I just topped my 1750 hour engine, but before I did, we pulled a cylinder from each side to get a look at the cam and lifters.

sorry to hear of your misfortune.  
-dan

I forgot about Ram!  I'll call them Monday.  Thanks!

[T. Peterson]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I forgot about Ram!  I'll call them Monday.  Thanks!

I haven’t seen any mention of Western Skyways. It may be worth a call to just see what they have to say.

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I haven’t seen any mention of Western Skyways. It may be worth a call to just see what they have to say.

I'll do that.  Its just that RAM was the runner up shop I researched but I went with Penn Yan because its also excellent, had a slightly better price for the same spec'ed overhaul but also very important it is nearby and the r&r shop Weber a mooney service center likes them and uses them.  Well I remember RAM had offered a core exchange. So surely they can even offer outright purchase or partial core exchange or something.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

RAM may have an engine for you. Did AirPower quote a lead time? 
I just topped my 1750 hour engine, but before I did, we pulled a cylinder from each side to get a look at the cam and lifters.

sorry to hear of your misfortune.  
-dan

They were 17-19 weeks out at AirPower.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You said you had a bad camshaft. The report says you have a bad crankshaft. Big difference. The case repair should be about $2000. A lot cheaper than a new case. 

So if a case repair might be $2k and they are suggesting to send me to at least factory overhaul zero time for $30k beyond what the original overhaul was - that suggests that the crankshaft is $28k?!  How much is a crankshaft to buy new?  Or a serviceable one?  Or a replacement case?  Are these two parts really that expensive?

BTW a complete new engine is $101k.

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I'll do that.  Its just that RAM was the runner up shop I researched but I went with Penn Yan because its also excellent, had a slightly better price for the same spec'ed overhaul but also very important it is nearby and the r&r shop Weber a mooney service center likes them and uses them.  Well I remember RAM had offered a core exchange. So surely they can even offer outright purchase or partial core exchange or something.

Help us understand the situation. Did your A&P pull your engine and ship it to Penn Yan?  And did Penn Yan spilt the cases/tear down to find this?  If so - now will they have to reassemble?  And then you have to ship it somewhere else?  
If so I assume you will have to pay Penn Yan and more shipping. 

Will you actually save anything by going with another shop? 

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

So if a case repair might be $2k and they are suggesting to send me to at least factory overhaul zero time for $30k beyond what the original overhaul was - that suggests that the crankshaft is $28k?!  How much is a crankshaft to buy new?  Or a serviceable one?  Or a replacement case?  Are these two parts really that expensive?

BTW a complete new engine is $101k.

The crankshaft is by far the most expensive, and heaviest, part of the engine.   It is definitely a cost driver if it needs to be replaced.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

The crankshaft is by far the most expensive, and heaviest, part of the engine.   It is definitely a cost driver if it needs to be replaced.

Is a crank shaft on the order of $30k?

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Is a crank shaft on the order of $30k?

Are you comparing the price of a field overhaul with the price of a Factory New engine?

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Help us understand the situation. Did your A&P pull your engine and ship it to Penn Yan?  And did Penn Yan spilt the cases/tear down to find this?  If so - now will they have to reassemble?  And then you have to ship it somewhere else?  
If so I assume you will have to pay Penn Yan and more shipping. 

Will you actually save anything by going with another shop? 

Yes the R&R shop is Weber aircraft in PA, a nice mooney specific shop.  The engine was shipped to Penn Yan which is maybe 3 hrs drive away.  it was disassembled there and evaluated which is where it is now.  yes I will have to pay for the disassembly and evaluation, which is money already spent but I dont know how much.  If I would buy a factory zero time or a factory new engine, I presume that is a drop ship no core purchase - unless they will take the core - so either very expensive or slightly less expensive if I can get something back on my current core in its defective and disassembled state that it is, plus shipping.  Or maybe I end up abandoning the core and its scrap?  I dont know yet.  I just remember that also RAM had core exchange engines so presumably I could also purchase those outright without a core, or maybe partial cost offset with a defective core?  Maybe that will price a little better than factory?  Anyway at this stage - no matter how I spin it - this re-engine will shape up to be unusually expensive.  So be it - Im stuck and I am just trying to best manage the situation.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, 1980Mooney said:

Are you comparing the price of a field overhaul with the price of a Factory New engine?

Yes - the field overhaul at Penn Yan vs the factory reman zero time is $30k different and they are suggesting it's cheaper to go factory.  A factory new would be $39k more.  

[EricJ]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yes - the field overhaul at Penn Yan vs the factory reman zero time is $30k different and they are suggesting it's cheaper to go factory.  A factory new would be $39k more.  

That's easy to believe with the issues they've outlined, particularly the crank.   I doubt they'd send you away if it didn't make sense to do so.   It's not in their interest to wind up charging people more for an overhaul than better options would cost.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Yes - the field overhaul at Penn Yan vs the factory reman zero time is $30k different and they are suggesting it's cheaper to go factory.  A factory new would be $39k more.  

I am looking at AirPower Inc right now.  They are quoting a TSIO-520-NBR (Factory Rebuild) full price without Core at $92,699.00.  If you have a Core then they give up to $22,000 Credit for a net price of $70,699.00.  However a Core may be reduced in value due to condition.

I looked up crankshaft prices and I think your engine uses a 649898 Continental CRANKSHAFT.  Those sell new for about $10,200 online.

The fact that your engine is in pieces now and not running with a worn out crank may render it worthless for a Core trade in.  Once Penn Yan tore it down you are more than half pregnant.  If you contemplate a Factory engine with Core trade then you pretty much need a binary decision up front.  Even then you may not have gotten full Core value.

Core Condition

• Core returns must be active, assembled, complete, running, and repairable condition with genuine OEM crankcase and crankshaft. Engines that are incomplete or which are found to be inoperable may be returned to the customer, freight collect, and no credit will be issued. Cores must be returned with a valid data plate. All engine cores must include the logbook.
• No core can be returned that has been disassembled in any respect or that has any parts removed or replaced other than “in-service” parts replacement without prior written approval.

Continental Aerospace Technologies (CAT) Specific Requirements

• Returned cores must be sent directly to CAT and be identified with Distributor’s Name (Air Power), Returned Good Authorization (RGA) number, engine core invoice number, and must include the logbook entry for the aircraft from which the engine is removed.
• In the case of an engine core returned to CAT that is determined to be missing parts, CAT may at its sole discretion accept the engine core and reduce the applicable engine core credit by the list price in effect for any missing part(s) at the time of engine core receipt.
• Any core returned to CAT that is worn or damaged beyond economical repair shall be subject to reduced engine core credit or rejection.

Edited 5 hours ago by 1980Mooney

[N201MKTurbo]

Make sure you get your engine back. Those parts have value to the experimental folks.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Make sure you get your engine back. Those parts have value to the experimental folks.

How do I sell them?  Is there a third party distributor?

Im close enough to Penn Yan, about 3.5 hrs drive - I supposed I could borrow a trick or get someone to help, I could go get it - but then what would I do with it in my hangar?

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

That's easy to believe with the issues they've outlined, particularly the crank.   I doubt they'd send you away if it didn't make sense to do so.   It's not in their interest to wind up charging people more for an overhaul than better options would cost.

Oh I am quite confident that Penn Yan is a first rate quality company and they would not be suggesting this route if they didnt think there was something cost effective that they could do that they could recommend to me.  I really respect a company that is willing to turn away a customer when it may be in my best interest.