Backlash against Vector Airport Systems

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Try selling that "little guy" thing to 99.9999 percent of Americans.  If you own an airplane -- any airplane -- you are "rich".  Despite all protestations to the contrary.

That's what my coworkers thought when I bought mine. Then I said "it's a 1970," they got funny looks on their faces, and one said to another, "that's older than you!" Didn't hear anything else about it . . . .

[Ragsf15e]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's what my coworkers thought when I bought mine. Then I said "it's a 1970," they got funny looks on their faces, and one said to another, "that's older than you!" Didn't hear anything else about it . . . .

I usually call mine a volkswagon with wings… aircooled, 4 banger, small, old, etc.  it fits and people stop thinking I have a Gulfstream.

[MikeOH]

I just point out they paid more for their SUV than I did for my plane

[Justin Schmidt]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I just point out they paid more for their SUV than I did for my plane

With a 72 month 20% interest loan on a vehicle that will loose 80% value second it leaves the lot

[Ragsf15e]

33 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said:

With a 72 month 20% interest loan on a vehicle that will loose 80% value second it leaves the lot

And that’s why I have a nice airplane, but happily drive a 23 year old truck!

[Justin Schmidt]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

And that’s why I have a nice airplane, but happily drive a 23 year old truck!

I don't even want a vehicle anymore...seen the shit on the roads recently plus the roads themselves lol alas I must get places 

[amillet]

16 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

And that’s why I have a nice airplane, but happily drive a 23 year old truck!

You’ve got me beat. I drive a 2003 Tundra

[Bolter]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

And that’s why I have a nice airplane, but happily drive a 23 year old truck!

2 hours ago, amillet said:

You’ve got me beat. I drive a 2003 Tundra

I suddenly feel so decadent with a 2007 Chevy pickup!  

 

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Bolter said:

I suddenly feel so decadent with a 2007 Chevy pickup!  

 

My 2004 Ranger finally died, so I'm "getting by" with a '21 Ridgeline. Yeah, I splurged after 15 years of Mooney ownership.  

[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, Bolter said:

I suddenly feel so decadent with a 2007 Chevy pickup!  

 

I drive a 2023 Bolt EV, Bolter.    don’t laugh, these are really good cars.

[dkkim73]

13 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

And that’s why I have a nice airplane, but happily drive a 23 year old truck!

Amen.  Although there are some sweet spots, the ROI on newer cars isn't very straightforward. Check prices on the low end models v years ago. A known good old car compares very well against even a moderately used mid year car with unknown mx. The situation changes a bit if you really need an EV, but most don't. 

Edited January 18 by dkkim73

[Hank]

31 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

The situation changes a bit if you really need an EV, but most don't. 

No one needs an EV, and I certainly do not want one. Range is too limited for much more than a daily commuter, and I'm freshly retired. 

For the 360 mile trip to visit mom, I could leave home at 100%, charge twice going up and three times coming back. Or hit one gas station near her with low prices for the trip home, the round trip's about 50 miles longer than my full-tank driving range. (Sometimes weather prevents flying to her 2770 x 30', unlit, no approaches nearby airport).

[dkkim73]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

No one needs an EV, and I certainly do not want one. Range is too limited for much more than a daily commuter, and I'm freshly retired. 

I was under-stating it to be polite as I know there are some big EV proponents on the board. The situations I'm thinking about are like yours, in terms of range and tempo, and/or with additional community or tax mechanisms that would favor EV ownership, and where someone's really looking at new-vs-new purchases. 

OTOH there are situations where someone really does "need" the range or robustness of a petroleum (gas or diesel) vehicle. 

That said, there are some sweet spots out there, like an old Prius as a taxi, etc, where the TCO pencils out. 

I think most of the EV advocacy is preference, incl. for interesting engineering, enviropolitics or social pressures, etc. 

[dkkim73]

17 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Not sure where you're going with all that.  Even though it may be an error in their tracking, they DO think you owe them money.  Some guy overseas isn't pulling N# off the registry and mailing them out.  It's a pretty simple process and the issue is the computer thinks you landed.  No more, no less. 

  

My point is that it's a low-cost, crumb-catching business model with fairly blunt tools (it seems) that would reasonably be expected to generate a non-trivial rate of erroneous bills. 
My disdain crept through which probably made it less clear. 

I would disagree with "no more, no less", as I think there are some implications and externalities for which the vendor isn't taking responsibility. If you don't mind being on the receiving end, that's your prerogative. 

[dkkim73]

16 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

If you flew in to get your Mooney worked on, you have already stipulated that you are not a "little guy".

Now it's my turn to not be sure where this is going. Except maybe to remind me that there's probably not a lot of public sympathy for anyone who flies a private airplane. With which I will not argue. 

Where the poster who received the bill is a "little guy" is in that he is a private individual receiving a spurious bill from a corporate vendor contracted to at best another corporation, or much more likely, a municipality. So the bill recipient is on the hook for a bill and has to "fight city hall" to get it fixed. Whereas all the people on the other end aren't responsible personally, get to go home at the normal time and don't get fed any less for making mistakes like this. 

We have in the US numerous consumer protection laws to prevent predatory practices in certain areas and big gaps in others. My point is that, even if there aren't certain standards of care and diligence that apply to these situations, it's still crappy, and is another example of crappification of the economy. 

 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

No one needs an EV, and I certainly do not want one. Range is too limited for much more than a daily commuter, and I'm freshly retired. 

For the 360 mile trip to visit mom, I could leave home at 100%, charge twice going up and three times coming back. Or hit one gas station near her with low prices for the trip home, the round trip's about 50 miles longer than my full-tank driving range. (Sometimes weather prevents flying to her 2770 x 30', unlit, no approaches nearby airport).

It depends on the car and it depends on the trip and it depends on what’s available for charging. But unless you buy a Ford excursion diesel with tanks strapped on the back, there’s no vehicle that does 100% of your needs. But for 100-150 mile range around  home which are 95% of peoples trips, the right electric car can make a lot of sense. I switched over from a 2009 turbo BMW to a 2023 bolt, and I went from 200 bucks a month in gas to $36 in electricity. But really the money doesn’t really change things, but the complete silence and the fact that I never have to go to a gas station or an auto repair Shop is cool.  If I put 100,000 miles in this car, it was free for the gas ive saved, 20 grand. But if you have a 360 mile one-way trip, a model three can do that trip easily by stopping once at the midpoint to charge up for about 15 minutes. And then charge it in the destination town. Most people if they’re driving that far in one direction, they’ll stop halfway anyway, so burden wise, it’s no different. The mooney isn’t the right airplane for a transcontinental trip, but if you only do the trip once or twice a year, it still makes sense. Otherwise, you have a bunch of unused capacity that you don’t need, and that cost money too.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

I think there are some implications and externalities for which the vendor isn't taking responsibility.

That's why I suggested when people email in to get a credit they also CC Vector's client.  Be it a City, County or State Board, office or whatever.  None of us are going to make Vectors change their business model if the people paying them are not aware of an issue or think the issue is minor/occasional.  Why would they ask Vector to make a change if they think all is basically good?  If they start seeing an uptick in complaints, in theory, they are going to ask what's going on.  Or at least at the next board meeting when tenants or users of the airport start complaining, they can't say they didn't know anything about it.

And I really don't fault Vector for coming up with a better solution than what most airports were doing before.  Yes, at the moment the early version has obvious flaws, but those flaws can be addressed.  And if it saves the airports money and simplifies the process, then they are less likely to raise the fees again for a while.  But if they were doing it the old fashion way with Staff, those costs are sky rocketing.   

And I don't know where you fly, but airport fees are NOT new.  All across the country I've stopped at airports that have fees.  Usually a few bucks, sometimes more, but being told there is a fee hasn't been a shock for a few decades.  Up until recently, most have been waved if you buy fuel, but there are more an more larger airports that are not waving the fee.  So getting on those airports for the fees in the first place is more of an issue in my opinion. 

 

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

And I don't know where you fly, but airport fees are NOT new.  All across the country I've stopped at airports that have fees. . . .Up until recently, most have been waved if you buy fuel, but there are more an more larger airports that are not waving the fee. 

Many airports charge to oark, some more, some less.

The issue with Vector is that they are charging to land, even billing for touch and goes, low passes and missed approaches. I have never been charged for those, and will fight any that indo receive.

Recently, KFAY waived the $8 handling fee because I bought (overpriced) fuel (with flowage and other fees), but charged $37/night for parking. No fees to land.

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But for 100-150 mile range around  home which are 95% of peoples trips, the right electric car can make a lot of sense.

In this country, the average daily driver clocks 39 miles per day.  If you charge in your garage, and don't do many cross-country trips, you may never have to visit a gas station again.

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Where the poster who received the bill is a "little guy" is in that he is a private individual receiving a spurious bill from a corporate vendor contracted to at best another corporation, or much more likely, a municipality.

I just meant that the "little guy" card won't buy much sympathy from the non-aviators.

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

In this country, the average daily driver clocks 39 miles per day.  If you charge in your garage, and don't do many cross-country trips, you may never have to visit a gas station again.

For three years, I went 44 miles to work, sometimes doing shopping in town before my 44 miles home. Then I changes jobs, and my commute became 35 miles each way. These do not include sometimes going out for lunch. It was easy to hit 100 miles in a day.

Went from gassing up (ten minutes) every six working days to every eight working days, and I didn't need an hour or more stopping to drive 360 miles to visit my mother. If I stopped by my brother's house enroute, it would definitely be two charges going up; regardless, it would then be a minimum of three charges coming home, taking a six hour trip to a bare minimum of 8 hours. Unacceptable. 

While Vector hasn't tagged me with any landing fees yet, I'll be sure to argue with the airport if they ever do. I've never seen a landing fee assessed for a plane less than 6000 lb., almost two and a half times my max gross weight.

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

even billing for touch and goes

I've never heard of an Airport that charges landing fees to not charge the landing fees if you do a T&G.  Wheels touch the ground you pay the fee. 

The other stuff is all about ADS-B not being corrected for the current Altimeter and they show you were at 0 ft AGL (or maybe even below the Apt elevation )  So that's were you have to make sure the actual Client is aware so they can get on Vectors case.  Or avoid the airport all together. 

 

[toto]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

No one needs an EV, and I certainly do not want one. Range is too limited for much more than a daily commuter, and I'm freshly retired. 

For the 360 mile trip to visit mom, I could leave home at 100%, charge twice going up and three times coming back. Or hit one gas station near her with low prices for the trip home, the round trip's about 50 miles longer than my full-tank driving range. (Sometimes weather prevents flying to her 2770 x 30', unlit, no approaches nearby airport).

We’re now an all-EV household, and the EVs cover our 95% use case (including a 100-mile RT daily commute). For a road trip of any significant length, we just rent a car. The fuel costs for two EVs on a ToD electric plan are under $40/mo, which more than pays for the occasional rentals. I’m a fan of renting cars for road trips anyway (had too many bad experiences getting stranded with a personal car waiting on a repair shop in the middle of nowhere), so we would be renting for most of these trips even without the EV thing. 

(Sorry for contributing to the thread drift, just wanted to chime in on EV practicalities. To each their own, of course, but it’s really not bad.)

[dkkim73]

14 hours ago, toto said:

(Sorry for contributing to the thread drift, just wanted to chime in on EV practicalities. To each their own, of course, but it’s really not bad.)

Thread drift, huh? 
But how do you *feel* about lean-of-peak operations, and Continental vs. Lycoming? 

 

[toto]

1 minute ago, dkkim73 said:

Thread drift, huh? 
But how do you *feel* about lean-of-peak operations, and Continental vs. Lycoming? 

 

Ha, I was just following the drifting herd

I generally just eat popcorn when the really controversial stuff pops up, but this one seemed civil enough