Gear warning and manual crank down today

[bixmooney]

I flew my ‘new to me’ 1975 m20f today 

on take off, positive rate of climb , gear up and I got the alarm. 
I honestly didn’t know what it was and then realized the gear was not up or down on the indicator light.    
 

I did the climb and flew around to figure it out.    It would not cycle up or down.  
 

I went through the poh procedure , pulled the breaker , kept it slow , engaged the crank handle, cranked until I saw the gear down indicator light and stopped    I was careful to stop because I had read other people post about this before, thank you on that. 

landing and taxi were fine.    

I know I need the mechanic and up on jacks 

what are the most common problems for this scenario ? A circuit or the motor or something hanging up ? 
 

Vacation time coming up but I guess I am on the ground until this is sorted out. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, bixmooney said:

I flew my ‘new to me’ 1975 m20f today 

on take off, positive rate of climb , gear up and I got the alarm. 
I honestly didn’t know what it was and then realized the gear was not up or down on the indicator light.    
 

I did the climb and flew around to figure it out.    It would not cycle up or down.  
 

I went through the poh procedure , pulled the breaker , kept it slow , engaged the crank handle, cranked until I saw the gear down indicator light and stopped    I was careful to stop because I had read other people post about this before, thank you on that. 

landing and taxi were fine.    

I know I need the mechanic and up on jacks 

what are the most common problems for this scenario ? A circuit or the motor or something hanging up ? 
 

Vacation time coming up but I guess I am on the ground until this is sorted out. 

 

Well one thing is good job not playing around with it in the air.  Just get a good down indication and land.  That was solid.

One thing to check is (my F is a different year, so this might be slightly different) the throttle switch.  It’s almost as if you have two different indications.  If the gear isn’t down (as sensed by the downlock switch) and the throttle is idle, the gear warning will sound.  So you shouldn’t be able to get a gear alarm on takeoff since you had full throttle.  The switch is a tiny microswitch right behind the panel on the throttle cable.  If it sticks, the alarm can sound as soon as you move the gear up.  Fyi, there’s a gear warning circuit breaker you can pull to quiet the alarm if you need to.

So are you saying that you also didn’t get the gear up light also?  That’s separate from the alarm.

[Bunti]

If the gear does not cycle and the circuit breakers are not popped then  it can be a broken motor or a broken gear limit switch or a broken gear solenoid. Put the plane on jacks, remove the belly and spray contact cleaner into the gear limit switches. Some switches are best reachable when the gear is up or in transit. Then try again to extend and to retract the gear.

[Ragsf15e]

The weird thing is that if the gear doesn’t come up due to a limit switch, the alarm shouldn’t sound.  We need some more clarification on that.  Also, did you look down at the floor indicator before cranking down the gear?  Where were the lines?

[bixmooney]

21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Well one thing is good job not playing around with it in the air.  Just get a good down indication and land.  That was solid.

One thing to check is (my F is a different year, so this might be slightly different) the throttle switch.  It’s almost as if you have two different indications.  If the gear isn’t down (as sensed by the downlock switch) and the throttle is idle, the gear warning will sound.  So you shouldn’t be able to get a gear alarm 

 

21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Well one thing is good job not playing around with it in the air.  Just get a good down indication and land.  That was solid.

One thing to check is 

 

’

When flying around, it said red , unsafe.

I don’t think that I really got a great look at the floor indicator, but it was not the green down.

I did try the switch down and then up again and nothing happened.   
then I just decided to do the procedure and if I got the green indicator, which I did, get on the ground 

 There is a video of the take off.   I had thrown the gear switch and my hand was down on the trim wheel , so it seems that it happened as the gear was in transit or all the way up ?

I made a radio call, but no one was at the airport to give me a visual. 

looking in the nose and wing wells with a flashlight and video, nothing catches my eye. 
 

I wish I had a GoPro on the belly ! 

 

[Mikey30V]

How cold was it, and how old are your shock discs?

My 1975 C had the gear stall out on the way up several times one winter while I was based in Davenport Iowa.  It was around 30F and the discs on the left gear leg failed to expand enough to continue to actuate the squat switch while the gear was in transit.

I changed both limit switches and the control switch in the panel before I changed the 15+ year old shock discs on the gear leg.

The problem was not resolved until the shock discs were replaced.  In a warm maintenance hangar, the gear would not malfunction--but in 30F temperatures the malfunction reappeared after each electrical component was replaced.

Might be worth a look in your logs to see when the shock discs were last changed, assuming that your ship has the squat switch on the left leg.

 

Edited November 29 by Mikey30V

[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, Mikey30V said:

How cold was it, and how old are your shock discs?

My 1975 C had the gear stall out on the way up several times one winter while I was based in Davenport Iowa.  It was around 30F and the discs on the left gear leg failed to expand enough to continue to actuate the squat switch while the gear was in transit.

I changed both limit switches and the control switch in the panel before I changed the 15+ year old shock discs on the gear leg.

Might be worth a look in your logs to see when the shock discs were last changed, assuming that your ship has the squat switch on the left leg.

 

Generally the gear pucks can do this if you have the squat switch on the left main gear instead of the airspeed switch behind the airspeed indicator.  That could prevent the gear coming up, but won’t set off the alarm.  The pucks don’t prevent the gear retracting if it has the airspeed switch on.  Thats definitely good info to know here?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, bixmooney said:

 

When flying around, it said red , unsafe.

I don’t think that I really got a great look at the floor indicator, but it was not the green down.

I did try the switch down and then up again and nothing happened.   
then I just decided to do the procedure and if I got the green indicator, which I did, get on the ground 

 There is a video of the take off.   I had thrown the gear switch and my hand was down on the trim wheel , so it seems that it happened as the gear was in transit or all the way up ?

I made a radio call, but no one was at the airport to give me a visual. 

looking in the nose and wing wells with a flashlight and video, nothing catches my eye. 
 

I wish I had a GoPro on the belly ! 

 

Ok, start with this, I acknowledge, mine is a ‘68?F and yours is newer so maybe different… however, my “unsafe” red light means the gear is up correctly.  That light is normally on all flight until I put the gear down for landing.  Are you saying yours isn’t like that?

In mine, if I put the gear up and the alarm went off and the red light came on, that would mean the gear is up properly but the throttle microswitch failed.  That would narrow this down very quickly to the throttle switch and that’s very easy to access, adjust, exercise and lube (a little contact cleaner).

 

[Hank]

40 minutes ago, Mikey30V said:

How cold was it, and how old are your shock discs?

My 1975 C had the gear stall out on the way up several times one winter while I was based in Davenport Iowa.  It was around 30F and the discs on the left gear leg failed to expand enough to continue to actuate the squat switch while the gear was in transit.

I changed both limit switches and the control switch in the panel before I changed the 15+ year old shock discs on the gear leg.

Might be worth a look in your logs to see when the shock discs were last changed, assuming that your ship has the squat switch on the left leg.

Mine did that too, winter gets cold in WV. The gear alarm would sound continuously, very annoying after a few minutes. Replaced all eleven pucks, haven't had a recurrence in several years. Taxiing is also nicer!

The floor indicator actually showed a red-and-white barber pole, indicating that the gear were partially up.

[bixmooney]

21 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ok, start with this, I acknowledge, mine is a ‘68?F and yours is newer so maybe different… however, my “unsafe” red light means the gear is up correctly.  That light is normally on all flight until I put the gear down for landing.  Are you saying yours isn’t like that?

In mine, if I put the gear up and the alarm went off and the red light came on, that would mean the gear is up properly but the throttle microswitch failed.  That would narrow this down very quickly to the throttle switch and that’s very easy to access, adjust, exercise and lube (a little contact cleaner).

 

Yes, that is right, the same.
 

 I think you are right that it is the switch connected to the throttle setting.   It makes sense and appreciate all the input.  
I will try to locate it.  
I am in michigan but happy to have a heated hanger.  Maybe I can get to it and try contact cleaner.  

I actually had a stall warning switch fail recently and cleared up after trying the contact cleaner on that.  
 

I brought the plane up from Texas to Michigan a few months ago.   

[N201MKTurbo]

Mine did that once. It turns out one of the brushes fell out of the motor. I picked it up off the one piece belly and screwed it back in and it has been fine ever since. 
 

Ir was secured with epoxy. The epoxy fell off and allowed the brush holder to unscrew. I put RTV on them and it is still good. That was 20 years ago.

[201Steve]

You can put one jack under the wing of the side where your squat switch lives and listen for the click. That will at least tell you if it needs adjustment. Quick easy and simple. 
 

I hesitate to point to that as the problem if it started and then stopped. I guess it’s possible, but an out of spec squat switch would more likely work or not work, or break free, but doesn’t make sense that it would release and then Reengage. Either way, the test is simple. 
 

sub part B to that coin, the switch leads to a cannon plug tucked into the nearest wing inspection panel. You can disconnect the cannon plug, attach alligator clamps to the pins, and read continuity or resistance at the switch while you actuate the jack to simulate a takeoff. That’s the fool proof test (unless it’s intermittent). 
 

past that, you can easily remove and test the gear selector switch.

Past that, you are pulling belly panels and dealing with limit switches. 

in order of complexity. Good luck

[AJ88V]

Isn't the gear alarm triggered by a throttle reduction to a low-power setting?   The incident occurred during takeoff/climbout......  

Gear up with the squat switch triggered by old/cold shock disks makes sense (as others suggested above), but why wouldn't the gear cycle down again?

[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Isn't the gear alarm triggered by a throttle reduction to a low-power setting?   The incident occurred during takeoff/climbout......  

Gear up with the squat switch triggered by old/cold shock disks makes sense (as others suggested above), but why wouldn't the gear cycle down again?

You are correct on the throttle switch.  I think we’re narrowing down to that.  I’m not 100% sure he tried to put the gear down electrically before pulling the cb and cranking it?  But yes, it should have come down normally.

[AJ88V]

I think the warning for gear up switch with the plane still on the ground is a fast beep (don't recall, only heard it once and don't want to repeat that).

The warning for low power is with gear up is a steady beep.  Hit that one often trying to get slowed down.  Think mine goes off about 15" MAP.

20 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

You are correct on the throttle switch.  I think we’re narrowing down to that.  I’m not 100% sure he tried to put the gear down electrically before pulling the cb and cranking it?  But yes, it should have come down normally.

Agreed.  But best to check it out on the ground on jacks to be sure.  Better to do it on the ground!

[201Steve]

I’m about 99% sure the throttle position switch has nothing to do with the gear circuit. It’s just an alarm. It doesn’t stop the system from doing anything.

[PT20J]

Assuming the F is wired like the J (and I'm pretty sure it is), the landing gear actuating and warning circuits are completely independent. If the actuator will not run in either direction, the problem lies in something common to both up and down actuating circuits such as the motor, wiring, circuit breaker or the gear switch.

[cliffy]

Do nothing until you can get  a mechanic to put it up on jacks!  That way it is in SAFE mode

Be careful with taxi and tugging until its on jacks

Definitely do not try jacking one wheel at this point.  

If it were me I'd be locking the gear over centers with clamps and rods while I maneuvered around to get it on jacks BTJM 

Now with it on jacks the trouble shooting can commence - SAFELY!

[bixmooney]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

Do nothing until you can get  a mechanic to put it up on jacks!  That way it is in SAFE mode

Be careful with taxi and tugging until its on jacks

Definitely do not try jacking one wheel at this point.  

If it were me I'd be locking the gear over centers with clamps and rods while I maneuvered around to get it on jacks BTJM 

Now with it on jacks the trouble shooting can commence - SAFELY!

Yep, thank you for the responses.

thank you for the responses.

I think Ragsf15 is right on and throttle speed switch is it but still not 100% clear if I tried the gear down with the breaker pulled or not pulled.   

this plane is new to me and I decided to fly it slow, gear down 60 miles to a mooney service center , have it up on jacks and look at this problem and address some other things.   I have a good mechanic but busy and will be good to establish a relationship with the service center mechanic.   
 

up on jacks and gear swinging tomorrow ! 
 

 

[bixmooney]

Mooney up on Jacks one piece belly pan off at the service center and the gear swung like 20 times and no issues.  

the gear alert alarm sounds when throttle broke got back and stops bringing the throttle forward , like it should 

still checking for obstruction or anything in the throttle quadrant and will spray some contact cleaner there, but that seems like the throttle switch had to be the issue.  I think that throttle switch temporarily stuck.  

me being distracted with the passenger , I think that I did not truly try and fail to lower the gear before pulling the breaker.   Now that I have been able to think and go through how this all works, it all makes sense.  
 

I did find out that I have the new style down lock switch and the gear motor is running well and happy to look at things with the belly exposed and everything looks super clean.   

I have a long list of minor things to correct over time , but happy to have found a good  mooney service mechanic to keep working with to address things.  
 

 

[Ragsf15e]

39 minutes ago, bixmooney said:

Mooney up on Jacks one piece belly pan off at the service center and the gear swung like 20 times and no issues.  

the gear alert alarm sounds when throttle broke got back and stops bringing the throttle forward , like it should 

still checking for obstruction or anything in the throttle quadrant and will spray some contact cleaner there, but that seems like the throttle switch had to be the issue.  I think that throttle switch temporarily stuck.  

me being distracted with the passenger , I think that I did not truly try and fail to lower the gear before pulling the breaker.   Now that I have been able to think and go through how this all works, it all makes sense.  
 

I did find out that I have the new style down lock switch and the gear motor is running well and happy to look at things with the belly exposed and everything looks super clean.   

I have a long list of minor things to correct over time , but happy to have found a good  mooney service mechanic to keep working with to address things.  
 

 

Don’t kick yourself.  I had my throttle microswitch stick on takeoff last year and it’s very disconcerting and disorienting.  I’ve had my airplane for 10 years (and have ~5000hrs) and it still wasn’t a fun 5 minutes departing the class d and c before i was like, dang pull that breaker!  Ahh, then I could think it through (i knew the gear was up from the red “unsafe” light).  Ahh, it’s just the throttle.  I cycled through idle once, reset the breaker, and all was well!  I also cleaned out that switch on the ground!

So you being new to the airplane, it was a good way to learn about all your systems and it turned out fine!  The more you’re involved in maintenance, the better you’ll be able to handle these little issues.

[bixmooney]

follow up on the gear issue. 

I flew it a couple times and the alarm went off with the gear up and then would not run down with the electric gear motor.   I pulled the breaker, engaged the crank and cranked it, no green light.  I put the breaker back in and it ran down with the gear motor.    

Back on jacks and the push or pull tube is bent and looks from wear to have been bent a little and the tabs on it were not engaging the switches in the belly.   The electric motor also seems to have a dead spot in it where it does not want to run.  

i have the 40:1 actuator.  

The actuator and motor seems hard to locate.   I have read other threads on this and similar actuator issues.    

Does anyone have experience with this and who rebuilds them or may have them ? or I see in some posts that it may be acceptable to use another actuator ? 

The actuator and electric motor seem to be one unit. 

The tube assembly seems available out there from used and checking with Moooney.  

[KSMooniac]

The long retract rods don't get bent from wear, they get bent from running into an obstruction during actuation or a really awful landing attempt.  They need to be straight, so replace or have it repaired per AC43-13.  You likely have a Dukes actuator, and there is a Mooney Service Bulletin and AD related to these, so make sure they get inspected.  My motor needed an overhaul back in 2008 but unfortunately the shop that did the motor has since closed.  They are simple electric motors, so you might be able to get it serviced at a good motor shop, but you might need to do a cash deal.  Otherwise you might call the major Mooney Service Centers and ask who/how they're servicing actuators currently.

If you switch actuators, you might need to change the emergency extension parts as well, but I'm not 100% sure.  I have a salvage actuator and emergency pull cable plus all the associated hardware from my salvage plane that I'm keeping for a rainy day if for some reason I can no longer run my Dukes actuator.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

The long retract rods don't get bent from wear, they get bent from running into an obstruction during actuation or a really awful landing attempt.  They need to be straight, so replace or have it repaired per AC43-13.  You likely have a Dukes actuator, and there is a Mooney Service Bulletin and AD related to these, so make sure they get inspected.  My motor needed an overhaul back in 2008 but unfortunately the shop that did the motor has since closed.  They are simple electric motors, so you might be able to get it serviced at a good motor shop, but you might need to do a cash deal.  Otherwise you might call the major Mooney Service Centers and ask who/how they're servicing actuators currently.

If you switch actuators, you might need to change the emergency extension parts as well, but I'm not 100% sure.  I have a salvage actuator and emergency pull cable plus all the associated hardware from my salvage plane that I'm keeping for a rainy day if for some reason I can no longer run my Dukes actuator.

I think they can also get bent if the tabs don’t hit the downlimit switch properly or the downlimit switch fails as thats the only thing stopping the actuator, no?

[KSMooniac]

19 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I think they can also get bent if the tabs don’t hit the downlimit switch properly or the downlimit switch fails as thats the only thing stopping the actuator, no?

True, I suppose if the limit switches don't trigger a stop then it could keep running enough to buckle the rods.  That would be essentially similar to hitting an obstruction during movement, except the obstruction is the over-center mechanism trying to go past it's normal position.  That is not "wear" either... it is a failure as far as I see it.