Bravo Logbook questions.

[Schllc]

I’m reviewing the logbooks of a bravo I am considering purchasing. 
it is about 16 years old and I have noticed a few things that I wondered about because some don’t seem typical, and a few maybe are but I’m just not as familiar with lycoming.
TT on plane and engine are around 1700 hours, no damage history or prop strikes.

1. magnetos have been out for overhaul or repair seven times?
2. Batteries have been changed about every two years, sometimes even more frequently. Could there be a draw causing this?
3.  Spark plugs have been changed st least 9 times.  That’s about every 180 hours. This is definitely not right if it’s a continental. Is this normal in the bravo?
4.  Turbo was overhauled at 400 hours so it’s at 1300.  I would be unsurprised by needed turbo service at this point in a continental.   Does the bravo turbo typically make tbo?
5. Right side exhaust was replaced but there has been no work on left side.  Exhaust on the acclaim was not a mid life issue in my experience but I heard it was on the bravo. Big deal?  Parts available?

Any other general points of interest a bravo owner would look for ?  
it’s had great maintenance history so I’m not looking for a boogeyman. Just want to be prepared. 
thanks in advance. 
 

 

[Dammit Bill]

1). Odd

2). Sounds normal if no type of battery minder used

3). To properly clean, gap and test each plug might take 15 minutes. With 12 of them on board, that’s three hours of labor. It might just be cheaper to put new plugs in rather than cleaning ones that have led in carbon deposits on them.

4). i’ve spoken to a turbo shop in California. The tech person said you can expect about 1000 hours out of the turbo. By about 975 hours, one should consider sending it off for a rebuild, along with the wastegate and the controller. That’s probably about $2000 worth of work.

 

5).  Exhaust is all over the place. I just replaced a downpipe on my right side earlier in the year.
 

all the best

[donkaye]

16 hours ago, Schllc said:

I’m reviewing the logbooks of a bravo I am considering purchasing. 
it is about 16 years old and I have noticed a few things that I wondered about because some don’t seem typical, and a few maybe are but I’m just not as familiar with lycoming.
TT on plane and engine are around 1700 hours, no damage history or prop strikes.

1. magnetos have been out for overhaul or repair seven times?

Mags should be OH every 500 hours, so 3 times; 7 is unusual. Get a Surefly for the left Mag if you buy the plane.  No more 500 hour inspections.

2. Batteries have been changed about every two years, sometimes even more frequently. Could there be a draw causing this?

If Gill, maybe.  Concord with a Batteryminder should last 7 years.

3.  Spark plugs have been changed st least 9 times.  That’s about every 180 hours. This is definitely not right if it’s a continental. Is this normal in the bravo?

Spark plugs normally changed at 475 hours. Cleaned and gapped yearly at Annual.  Possibly the plane was run at power settings indicated in the POH (90% Power), settings that caused the people writing the POH to lose their jobs I'm told.

4.  Turbo was overhauled at 400 hours so it’s at 1300.  I would be unsurprised by needed turbo service at this point in a continental.   Does the bravo turbo typically make tbo?

Based on 3 engines, the Turbo and waste gate needs overhaul at midtime or about 1100 hours.

5. Right side exhaust was replaced but there has been no work on left side.  Exhaust on the acclaim was not a mid life issue in my experience but I heard it was on the bravo. Big deal?  Parts available?

I've had to have work done on the exhaust of the first 2 engines.  Sometimes the part can be repaired.  Other times it has to be fabricated.  Parts don't seem to be a problem.  The work is expensive, though.

Any other general points of interest a bravo owner would look for ?

Make sure it doesn't have a Plessey gear actuator.  Otherwise, discount the plane for a new one $15,000. No Back Springs will never be available.

My comments in red above are based on 32 years of Bravo Ownership (same plane).

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, Schllc said:

I’m reviewing the logbooks of a bravo I am considering purchasing. 
it is about 16 years old and I have noticed a few things that I wondered about because some don’t seem typical, and a few maybe are but I’m just not as familiar with lycoming.
TT on plane and engine are around 1700 hours, no damage history or prop strikes.

1. magnetos have been out for overhaul or repair seven times?
2. Batteries have been changed about every two years, sometimes even more frequently. Could there be a draw causing this?
3.  Spark plugs have been changed st least 9 times.  That’s about every 180 hours. This is definitely not right if it’s a continental. Is this normal in the bravo?
4.  Turbo was overhauled at 400 hours so it’s at 1300.  I would be unsurprised by needed turbo service at this point in a continental.   Does the bravo turbo typically make tbo?
5. Right side exhaust was replaced but there has been no work on left side.  Exhaust on the acclaim was not a mid life issue in my experience but I heard it was on the bravo. Big deal?  Parts available?

Any other general points of interest a bravo owner would look for ?  
it’s had great maintenance history so I’m not looking for a boogeyman. Just want to be prepared. 
thanks in advance. 
 

 

If that's the airplane I think it is you'll never find a Bravo with that same equipment . . . ever.

The only math I would do on this one is factor in a new engine in a 300-500 hours and at what price would it still make sense if this is going to be a "forever" airplane. Once you factor that in, how would it compare to a similarly equipped Acclaim, which you're very familiar with?

If you buy it I'd make sure it has fine wire Tempest plugs, especially on this engine. 

I'm not a fan of the Slick Mags on this engine, but up until SureFly it was the only option (don't even think about the ElectroAir). Take the advice to do the SureFly on the left mag (but keep the old one to send in with the core when that day comes). I would only use one shop to overhaul the other mag (Robert at Aero Accessories in Van Nuys).  

On this late of a Bravo I'm not sure if they still used the mickey mouse trickle charge circuits with inline slo-blo fuses (later Mooneys have circuit breakers in the back on these circuits). If it still has the inline fuses, those are the first thing I would check. It wouldn't surprise me if they are both blown, so they aren't trickle charging. They get missed all of the time. These circuits are explained here: https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-275.pdf)

If they haven't been using a Battery Minder or they've been buying Gills I could see batteries every couple years.

A good pressurized/soapy water exhaust check should show any leaks. The left side is where the tail pipe is and if it hasn't had any work I'd be very surprised - maybe just wasn't logged correctly. Look especially close at the "Y" weld in the tailpipe. 

I believe that having a lot of owners and a lot of mechanics is what has led to the weirdness you're seeing in the logs. (Also, the folks who put the first 300 hours on this particular airplane wouldn't have really cared how they flew it, so that may have been part of it as well.) All of these engine abnormalities will go away when you change out the engine in a few hundred hours and since it will be you flying it you can track the maintenance a lot better than what has been done in the past. New owners can cook this engine in 100 hours if they don't know what they are doing. With that many people who have flown this, it surprised me that it hasn't had a major yet. 

Again if it's the one I'm thinking of, having had Top Gun do the last annual is a major plus. There are one of the few shops that has seen the TIO-540-AF1A and B engines right from the start and know what to look for.

[Schllc]

It is the one you are thinking of, I spoke to  Brian Kendrick who did a lot of the early work on the plane.  

My remaining concerns is that the turbo has 1400 hours as does the exhaust.  It must have the plessy gear actuator because the back spring has been changed (about 700 hours ago).

I realize the uniqueness of the plane, it is the main reason I am considering purchasing.

[Fritz1]

1.) 1700h on two mags replaced at 500h makes 6.8 mags, about right

2. ) probably Gill batteries with no minder

3.) probably too lazy to clean plugs, go for Tempest fine wires, they really make a difference in the Bravo engine

4.) turbo is typically good for 1000-1200h, 1st owner may have smoked it

5.) exhaust probably smoked by 1st owner, weakest spot on the Bravo

check the turbo transition with a mirror from behind, this is where the the bogeyman lives

like with all Mooneys check for corrosion especially around the stub spar

Brian Kendrick is one of the the most knowledgeable guys around, if you can get him to do the pre-purchase he will find all the hidden gems and then some

If you buy it, make sure baffles seal perfectly, biggest bang for the buck getting CHTs to where they are supposed to be

 

 

[Schllc]

40 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

1.) 1700h on two mags replaced at 500h makes 6.8 mags, about right

2. ) probably Gill batteries with no minder

3.) probably too lazy to clean plugs, go for Tempest fine wires, they really make a difference in the Bravo engine

4.) turbo is typically good for 1000-1200h, 1st owner may have smoked it

5.) exhaust probably smoked by 1st owner, weakest spot on the Bravo

check the turbo transition with a mirror from behind, this is where the the bogeyman lives

like with all Mooneys check for corrosion especially around the stub spar

Brian Kendrick is one of the the most knowledgeable guys around, if you can get him to do the pre-purchase he will find all the hidden gems and then some

If you buy it, make sure baffles seal perfectly, biggest bang for the buck getting CHTs to where they are supposed to be

 

 

Both Mags have have been changed 7 times, that’s every 240 hours, not what I would expect with a continental.  
Like you said, probably massive and not fine wires, so the frequency was not surprising to him either. 
The turbo and left side exhaust  has 1400 hours on it presently. That had to be at life’s end right?  

I talked to Brian today, he did a lot of the early maintenance.  He said unlikely that the turbo or the exhaust lasted this long, but there is no log entry for either so…. 
He also said that the slick mags are just not good, and that he isn’t surprised by the issues and also recommended the surefly.

Now I just have to decide whether or not to pull the trigger….

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

It is the one you are thinking of, I spoke to  Brian Kendrick who did a lot of the early work on the plane.  

My remaining concerns is that the turbo has 1400 hours as does the exhaust.  It must have the plessy gear actuator because the back spring has been changed (about 700 hours ago).

I realize the uniqueness of the plane, it is the main reason I am considering purchasing.

It has the newer Eaton landing gear actuator, which is a good thing. The Plessey was only on early production of the M20M.

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

Now I just have to decide whether or not to pull the trigger….

32 Years and never a regret.

[Schllc]

I don’t think I’m doubting the quality of my choice. It’s just that I am adding up the things it will need very soon, and factoring that into an agreeable price. 
The engine scarcity does concern me. It actually has 1800 hours now so I would be at tbo in a year and the engines are two years out. 
Would lycoming be trying to eliminate variants of an engine with this behavior?  
How can it possibly take two years?  
I am not against a well done overhaul, but my understanding is that the parts are out just as long. 

[Paul Thomas]

Overhaul shops don't seem to be as busy as they once were when I talked to vendors earlier this year. The main issue didn't seem to be parts as much as various vendor lead times for send out the crank, case, etc. I was told that buying cylinders in advance would not speed up the process.

[Fritz1]

feels like lead times are shrinking, reman engine might still be over one year out, call air power and two or three of your favorite overhaulers, the engine is good for about 2500h, might need a cylinder or two overhauled by then, my only concern is how the valve seats in this engine will hold up with unleaded fuel, only time will tell

[Schllc]

Well, after my review and a few phone calls, I am having a hard time moving forward.   

Exhaust and turbo are any minute, an overhaul is 90k and 6-8 months from the date they get the engine, and a new is 130k and 2 years.  I really wanted this one, it checks a lot of boxes, but I cannot make the numbers or the schedule work.  I would lose my mind looking at a plane in the hangar I cant fly for a year.  I realize it will likely go beyond TBO but you are still looking at a long downtime and some big maintenance issues in the very near future...

[Schllc]

Wow….

 

[LANCECASPER]

32 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Wow….

 

If there is a bright spot since that one has a first run engine, Lycoming had a longstanding policy of giving you a rebuilt at the overhaul price in exchange for your engine if it was first run. Whether they still do that or not I’m not sure.

 

Also since it has the newer crank and centrilube cam 1400 hours ago you should easily get another 600 hours before thinking about major overhaul.

[Fritz1]

hmm, really wondering what is going on at Lycoming, the only thing special about the AF1B are the cylinders, the cast is different to accomodate the oil injectors, the exhaust valve guides have external grooves to drain the oil into the rocker box, anybody got an explanation for the tremendous delivery times?

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

hmm, really wondering what is going on at Lycoming, the only thing special about the AF1B are the cylinders, the cast is different to accomodate the oil injectors, the exhaust valve guides have external grooves to drain the oil into the rocker box, anybody got an explanation for the tremendous delivery times?

My suspicion is they want to narrow the product line and the easiest way to do that is make the lesser used engines so difficult to obtain that they just attrit naturally. 
 

[LANCECASPER]

15 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

hmm, really wondering what is going on at Lycoming, the only thing special about the AF1B are the cylinders, the cast is different to accomodate the oil injectors, the exhaust valve guides have external grooves to drain the oil into the rocker box, anybody got an explanation for the tremendous delivery times?

This is a very low sales volume engine. Mooney was the only one to use the engine and they made 350 Bravos. How many remain flying? Probably between 310-320?

Since they don't have any of these engines sitting on the shelf, that means the orders for all other engine models which are already in-line are that far backlogged. It causes one to want to plan ahead and not wait until you "need" an engine.

 - - - 

Regarding pricing, one of the closest engines to this is the TIO-540-AG1A, an even lower sales volume engine, which was only used in the Commander 114TC and 115TC. A new one is $167,666, rebuilt is $110,497 and overhauled is $100,210. It does not have the oil cooled valve guides, but other than the cylinders a very similar engine. These are also backordered.

A different engine, but the twin turbo Lycoming 540 thats used in the Piper Mirage, now M350 (TIO-540-AE2A), new is $229,241, rebuilt is $155,572, overhauled is $143,473. These are also backordered.

It looks like Textron, who owns Lycoming, decided that people will pay this amount for engines to keep their airplanes flying.  With a two year wait it looks like they are right, at least for now. That wait time is just a projection though. I have heard of people getting Lycoming engines sooner than what they were originally told.

[Schllc]

Well, one of two things…. Actually probably both will happen. 
their values will rise, and some will get orphaned and parted out. 
if you owned a bravo and your engine blew up. You could buy one  on the market, scavenge the engine and part out the rest and come out way cheaper and quicker than a new engine. 

[BravoWhiskey]

@Schllc I think I bought the one you looked at a few years back.  I went through 9 months down with the rebuild plus a few more months while working out some other items that popped up. The overhaul cost was no where near what it is today. Still I hated downtime then but now looking back I’m glad I did it.  If you’re concerned about the downtime and want to wait for another one to come on the market you may be in the same position you are now.  Finances aside, to me it was well worth it.  
 

[LANCECASPER]

A few months ago when the tornado hit Omaha there was a hangared Bravo with a total loss. BAS sold the engine very soon after they purchased the salvage.

Just a couple of weeks ago on Houston Craigslist there was a TIO-540-AF1B for sale.

Wentworth Aircraft up in Minneapolis had a TIO-540-AF1B sitting on their site a long time a few years back and finally sold it.

The point is that engines do come up from time to time that could be sent off for overhaul.

Of course the best part about a factory engine is that if you plan ahead there's hardly any down time. Once it arrives your shop pulls your engine and puts on the "new" engine and sends back yours as a core. You also get all of the running improvements on the engine (roller tappets, etc).

At the price of a "new" engine now it drives down the price of a Bravo with a high time engine. For years on Vref the engine time on this engine was valued at around $30 an hour ($30 x 2000 = $60,000). Now you would have to value it at about $55 per hour. Buyers and Sellers will have to get used to that. 

If the Bravo in question on this thread had a mid-time engine (1000 SMOH) it would mostly likely be priced about $40,000 more.

 

[daytonabch04]

I overhauled my Bravo engine about 2 years ago...I'd have to go back and review the logs but my down time I believe was around 8 months.  I purchased the cylinders myself.  Quote I received in Dec 2022 was $63k with new cylinders, but did not include the turbocharger system and exhaust.  I'm about 150-200 hrs since O/H and haven't had any major issues.  Had a coil go out in the mag, but sent it back and was covered free of charge under warranty.  

[Jetpilot86]

Perk of a factory overhaul is they OH/Replace the turbo as well. When I bought mine, it had 10 hours on a Factory OH’d Bravo engine. 

[Schllc]

Yes, I confirmed that it comes with the headers, transition tube, and turbo. 
price has gone up, and delivery is currently feb 2026. Here is the best part. 
lycoming won’t guarantee a delivery date. If it’s over a month late, they will give you your deposit back. (After keeping 50k for two years)
it’s unbelievable that a business can operate this way. Our niche really is doing its best to obsolete itself. 

[EricJ]

On 10/2/2024 at 3:50 PM, LANCECASPER said:

A different engine, but the twin turbo Lycoming 540 thats used in the Piper Mirage, now M350 (TIO-540-AE2A), new is $229,241, rebuilt is $155,572, overhauled is $143,473. These are also backordered.

Just to your point of there being occassional opportunities to get engines, I helped a friend hang one of these on an experimental a while back.    Apparently they're really popular with the Reno Sport-class racers as they respond well to overboosting.   My friend got his from a Mirage that was converted to a Meridian-ish via a PT-6 installation, which is apparently a popular thing to do with Mirages.

It's not been a difficult engine to operate or maintain, so it's actually made me consider moving up to a Mirage, but then I usually soon come to my senses.