Fix or part out

[BS20E]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

Where in LA? That's my neck of the woods

Around Foley

[Shadrach]

50 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

He did not. There’s clearly something going on here that we are not privvy to. 

Agreed, but we are privy to the images of the paper estimates…unless the OP fabricated them, which seems unlikely.

[BS20E]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Agreed, but we are privy to the images of the paper estimates…unless the OP fabricated them, which seems unlikely.

What are you looking for that you are un privy to. Maybe I can help us get this figured out. 

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, BS20E said:

What are you looking for that you are un privy to. Maybe I can help us get this figured out. 

I think there is something fishy going on with in the shop.  Are you dealing with the owner?

[McMooney]

9 hours ago, clh said:

I feel your pain, coming out of a similar situation.  $45k is about right for a propstrike inspection.  Prices are way out of control.  But, depending on the avionics  you have, take a look at what the market is like.  Good "E"'s are hard to find at a reasonable price.   Also, before you contact the insurance, look at your stated value.  If it is low, the insurance adjuster will just total the aircraft and leave you screwed.      

how the heck is 45k about right for a prop strike inspection?  i can overhaul the engine for about that.   

this guy just showed up when the girlfriend wanted a new shiney

Edited May 10 by McMooney

[clh]

15 minutes ago, McMooney said:

how the heck is 45k about right for a prop strike inspection?  i can overhaul the engine for about that.   

this guy just showed up when the girlfriend wanted a new shiney

New prop,  remove, crate and ship engine, a bit of engine work, re-install engine.  It adds up fast. It was under $45k, but not by much.  BTW folks, the insurance adjuster had no problems with the estimates I was given.

[clh]

2 minutes ago, clh said:

New prop,  remove, crate and ship engine, a bit of engine work, re-install engine.  It adds up fast. It was under $45k, but not by much.  BTW folks, the insurance adjuster had no problems with the estimates I was given.

I am sure some of you can get the engine signed off by a guy with a red-tipped cane for $100...  I will respond no more to this thread... there is no more benefit.

[N201MKTurbo]

If the insurance company has no problem paying $45K for a prop strike inspection, maybe that’s the problem. I’m sure word gets around that the insurance company will pay any crazy invoice you give them. 
 

I must be out of the loop with maintenance costs. I haven’t payed anybody to work on my plane for decades.

[BS20E]

The shop sent me a report of the inspection and it showed a lot of pitting on parts and that the case had been welded before. It could be the case that I have a bad engine. It makes it hard to swallow since I was flying the plane no problems but it could have been a blessing that it was tore down before something happened. With that said I would never have authorized work on this engine if was in that bad shape.

[ArtVandelay]

So $10,500 is everything that it needs?
 
Just noticed the invoice. The insurance company paid for the teardown, right?
Can the case not be repaired? No one I know of buys a new case - they get theirs repaired or buy a serviceable case.

My case had a crack in it that couldn’t be repaired, back then a serviceable case was $3500 and new was $4500, I went with new. My crack was near where the alternator is mounted.

[201Steve]

Let me start off by clarifying. I have no dog in this hunt and don’t know Pinnacle from Adam. I also have experience dealing with a shady overhaul situation as many of you know I’m probably the last person to stand up for poor performance or customer service at an engine shop. However, I don’t think this is totally out of control. It makes sense that a field overhaul would be more expensive than a factory out. If there are that major components, as is described here. There is nothing Shop can do about the fact that he can’t beat Lycoming surprising pricing after discovering said parts.. Do you like com pricing where it doesn’t matter what’s wrong with your engine is absolutely absolutely a gamble. Some people will come out ahead because they had bad major components and others will have overpaid relative to a good overhaul because all of their parts were you can’t really do much the math after discovering what your condition is tear down so I think folks are getting a little, hothead about the pricing where it really isn’t that egregious. That does not excuse performing work when not authorized and I think that is the major take away but communication can be misconstrued often times. I think an honest, humble conversation with the shop explaining your financial ability and best move forward , where everyone walks away a little bit unhappy and that’s the mark of a good deal. 
 

sorry for voice to text errors. 
 

 

good luck sir!

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

My case had a crack in it that couldn’t be repaired, back then a serviceable case was $3500 and new was $4500, I went with new. My crack was near where the alternator is mounted.

That is a common area. Mine cracked on passenger side case half through the bolt boss that is just aft of the Alt/Gen mount area.  Case was overhauled by Crankcase services in Tulsa. Cost of$840 including return shipping. I also replaced all the lifters.. 

All in cost in 2010 was $4200, I R&R’d the engine.

[ArtVandelay]

That is a common area. Mine cracked on passenger side case half through the bolt boss that is just aft of the Alt/Gen mount area.  Case was overhauled by Crankcase services in Tulsa. Cost of$840 including return shipping. I also replaced all the lifters.. 
All in cost in 2010 was $4200, I R&R’d the engine.

I was leaking oil, but everyone would say all Lycomings do that, now it doesn’t leak. So if you have a leak, might want to consider it could be a cracked case.

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I was leaking oil, but everyone would say all Lycomings do that, now it doesn’t leak. So if you have a leak, might want to consider it could be a cracked case.

Mine has been tight since I hung the engine in 2011.  The leak from the case crack was obvious. Smoke from the top of the heat muff on shutdown. I only grew it like that twice before we diagnosed the crack.

[Shadrach]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:54 AM, 201Steve said:

Let me start off by clarifying. I have no dog in this hunt and don’t know Pinnacle from Adam. I also have experience dealing with a shady overhaul situation as many of you know I’m probably the last person to stand up for poor performance or customer service at an engine shop. However, I don’t think this is totally out of control. It makes sense that a field overhaul would be more expensive than a factory out. If there are that major components, as is described here. There is nothing Shop can do about the fact that he can’t beat Lycoming surprising pricing after discovering said parts.. Do you like com pricing where it doesn’t matter what’s wrong with your engine is absolutely absolutely a gamble. Some people will come out ahead because they had bad major components and others will have overpaid relative to a good overhaul because all of their parts were you can’t really do much the math after discovering what your condition is tear down so I think folks are getting a little, hothead about the pricing where it really isn’t that egregious. That does not excuse performing work when not authorized and I think that is the major take away but communication can be misconstrued often times. I think an honest, humble conversation with the shop explaining your financial ability and best move forward , where everyone walks away a little bit unhappy and that’s the mark of a good deal. 

sorry for voice to text errors. 

good luck sir!

 

There are several components to this on a customer service level and all of them tripped my BS meter. 

Not communicating inspection findings to the customer upon engine disassembly is lousy customer service.

Making decisions about how the engine will be reassembled without consulting the customer is not only lousy customer service, it’s underhanded.

Good customer service would include an immediate discussion of the condition of the engine internals, questions about the customer’s goals for his mid-time power plant and then options for return to service.

When I had my powerplant IRAN’d, the shop owner called me the same day the engine was disassembled to give me his appraisal of the engine internals. He said that the lifters had microscopic pitting and that they would very likely make it to TBO, but that replacing them now would be a trivial expense. We elected to replace. The cam and crank both looked beautiful with almost no visible wear. The cylinders all looked good save for one which showed some irregular heat patterns on the exhaust valve. We elected to send the cylinders out for IRAN. The shop owner did not make the determination on the repairability of the crank case, that was left up to the overhauler, Crankcase Services of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Had Crankcase Services found the cracked case half to be unrepairable, I suspect they would’ve sold me a serviceable unit and taken the serviceable half of my case as a partial core. As I said earlier, all of this work was performed for a very reasonable $4200. I realize this is 2010/2011 pricing but I had no sense that I was getting a screaming deal on the work that was performed. Only that everyone was being paid fairly for their portion of the work. What truly surprised me was the number of people who were shocked at how economical the repair had been, and how many of those folks would have elected to just have the engine overhauled at a cost of roughly 10X. That engine has been oil tight and in service for 13 years since. It is, by all accounts, one of the strongest IO360s I’ve ever flown behind.

A couple of other things I would mention about the OPs situation. His crank and cam are serviceable. The line items in the invoice are for “repair” which comprises a range of possibilities that will include some but not necessarily all of the following - magnetic particle inspection, verification of dimensions, machine work and heat treating.  

Some parts may indeed not be serviceable. However, I find it hard to believe that the crank and cam are serviceable but the cylinders, accessory gears and fuel servo are all shot.

so while I don’t have a personal dog in this fight, I do have some experience in having an IO360 IRAN’d and this situation still smells just a bit.

 

[Fritz1]

unfortunate situation that started with a prop strike and cascaded from there. There appears to be a decent airframe with a prop strike engine taken apart. The OP may wish to extract himself without further expense. One way to get this done might be to sell the project in one transaction as is where is to somebody who has the wherewithall to deal with this kind of thing. Jimmy Garrison at GMAX American might be able to do just that. Calling him at 210 872 1110 probably can't hurt. He buys, fixes and sells airplanes for a living and is good at it. If he does not buy it he might know somebody who does or find a way out of the situation that nobody thought of yet.

[Pinecone]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:01 PM, 201Steve said:

I know a seasoned owner who’s gone through multiple overhauls on a mooney he’s owned for 15 years, who has his engine at Pinnacle right now and he’s been very complimentary of the operation. 

Multiple overhauls in 15 years.  He must fly a LOT.

Say 3 is multiple.  Then he is flying 2000 hours every 5 years or 400 hours a year.

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Multiple overhauls in 15 years.  He must fly a LOT.

Say 3 is multiple.  Then he is flying 2000 hours every 5 years or 400 hours a year.

Or he may have bought it run-out or timed out and elected to overhaul it at the time of purchase, and the last time may have been recent, which would divide 4000 over 15 years (266 per year).

Or in that same example maybe his engine has an 1800 hr TBO (TSIO-360-LB) which he decides to go by . .  . Which would divide 3600 over 15 years (240 per year)

Or in that same example maybe his Mooney is a Rocket which has a 1600 hr TBO (TSIO-520-NB) which he decides to go by . .  . Which would divide 3200 over 15 years (213 per year)

 

. . .  Or maybe it only seems like 15 year but he’s owned it closer to 20 years . .  Time flies . . . Lots of possibilities 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Multiple overhauls in 15 years.  He must fly a LOT.

Say 3 is multiple.  Then he is flying 2000 hours every 5 years or 400 hours a year.

My thought as well. If I was flying that frequently, I’d like run them quite a ways past hourly TBO.

[201Steve]

10 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Multiple overhauls in 15 years.  He must fly a LOT.

Say 3 is multiple.  Then he is flying 2000 hours every 5 years or 400 hours a year.

Yeah, a mix of the above. 350 hours per year but, swallowed a valve on one, failed tappets on another (hello io360), and TBO on the first, I believe. 

[Pinecone]

Failed tappets is normally a not flown much problem.  350 hours a year should not have that issue.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Failed tappets is normally a not flown much problem.  350 hours a year should not have that issue.

It can be usage issue, but I have seen instances of frequently flown factory new 320s and 360s failing in less than 500hrs. This was pre roller tappets in the early aughts.

[Richie the C]

Find another shop and get an overhaul. Had a similar situation on my last Mooney and regretted doing an IRAN vs overhaul for almost the next 20 years. That is way too much money for that engine.

[Shadrach]

On 5/12/2024 at 3:41 PM, Richie the C said:

Find another shop and get an overhaul. Had a similar situation on my last Mooney and regretted doing an IRAN vs overhaul for almost the next 20 years. That is way too much money for that engine.

Why did you regret the IRAN?