A3B6D Electroair mag replacement

[Grant_Waite]

I’m thinking I’d like to ditch the goofy d3000 duel mag for the electro air replacement. If anyone has done this already, I’d like to know the good, bad and ugly. It seems pretty straightforward, one mag goes where the old drive for the d3000 was and to quote the Electroair site. “We use a split ring collar on the crank shaft for the electronic ignition timing pick-up. There are some single magnetos that will adapt to the dual mag hole, or alternatively you can operate two electronic ignition system”. Whatever the hell that means, I’m not very technical. I’m not concerned, if it actually gives me better fuel burn or higher hp… although the ladder is always appreciated. I’m going to go with the TCW ibbs battery pack to be the fail safe. I think it’s just as good, as an alternate alternator. There’s not even an stc on a J for one anyways. There have been a few field approvals though. Any pictures of an install would be great too, along with who did your install. Local shop or one of their installers? 

[N201MKTurbo]

Great discussion, I have lived with with a D3000 for 21 years now. It has given me grief. Not the grief most people imagine. After a few more years of data, I may consider a change.

[Grant_Waite]

28 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Great discussion, I have lived with with a D3000 for 21 years now. It has given me grief. Not the grief most people imagine. After a few more years of data, I may consider a change.

I’ve lived me with mine, well for less than a month. Hasn’t given me or the previous owner grief, but I really don’t like knowing that all my spark comes from one drive on the case. I know there old tech and a lot of places have stopped OH them. There’s many spof on a plane but my mags is not one I want to keep. I know it’s unlikely to have a mag failure. Anything to make my plane safer, I’m interested in. What kind of grief has your’s given you? 

[N201MKTurbo]

53 minutes ago, Grant_Waite said:

 What kind of grief has your’s given you? 

It has almost always been the points. I was in Ramona Ca, and at run up one mag was dead. I was able to find a nice airport resident to find me tools and a mag timer so I could reset them and fly home. The next time was on my way to Dallas. I was flying along and the engine started to stumble a little. I did  an inflight mag check and one mag was dead. I stopped at Odessa TX and the folks at Raindeer aviation (or something like that) got me fixed up in short order for a very reasonable price. Great people! The third time was the same scenario, I was coming back from San Diego and it happened again. I landed at Imperial and tried to find some help, there was none. A friend was cyber stalking me on flight aware and called me and asked if I was OK. I said no, I’m stuck here and don’t know what I was going to do. He gathered the tools up and flew from Phoenix to Imperial and I was able to fix it and fly home.

The other issue was one mag quit and I couldn’t figure it out, so I sent it out. It turns out the distributor contact had spun on its gear, so it wasn’t lining up with the spark plug wire when the mag fired. The shop said they had seen a rash of these. That gear was 30 years old. 
 

 So, it has been regular mag issues, nothing to do with the dual mag. 

[Grant_Waite]

33 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It has almost always been the points. I was in Ramona Ca, and at run up one mag was dead. I was able to find a nice airport resident to find me tools and a mag timer so I could reset them and fly home. The next time was on my way to Dallas. I was flying along and the engine started to stumble a little. I did  an inflight mag check and one mag was dead. I stopped at Odessa TX and the folks at Raindeer aviation (or something like that) got me fixed up in short order for a very reasonable price. Great people! The third time was the same scenario, I was coming back from San Diego and it happened again. I landed at Imperial and tried to find some help, there was none. A friend was cyber stalking me on flight aware and called me and asked if I was OK. I said no, I’m stuck here and don’t know what I was going to do. He gathered the tools up and flew from Phoenix to Imperial and I was able to fix it and fly home.

The other issue was one mag quit and I couldn’t figure it out, so I sent it out. It turns out the distributor contact had spun on its gear, so it wasn’t lining up with the spark plug wire when the mag fired. The shop said they had seen a rash of these. That gear was 30 years old. 
 

 So, it has been regular mag issues, nothing to do with the dual mag. 

That would get my ass puckered if the engine started to stumble. Crazy it has happened twice… must fly a lot. I know there’s a few people who have done this conversion, I just hope they see this. 

[KSMooniac]

I'm still working on my conversion that I started in September.  I work slow, and my hangar is not heated so I have not been out there as much as I'd like with well below average winter temps this season.  Holiday commitments, and dealing with my father's passing in November have all prevented me from finishing as quickly as I had hoped.

I believe EA estimates 50 hours of installation hours.  They cannot give an exact figure because every application and every individual plane is different in terms of the integration required.  I'll probably be closer to 100 hours of labor before I'm finished, but I work slow.  It is a SUBSTANTIAL installation task. 

• A backup battery in the tail
• routing a harness to the panel (and their harness is way too short!)
• fabricating a new key switch panel to hold their big mag switch and start button
• finding a home for the backup battery meter and switch panel
• finding homes for two controller boxes behind the panel
• plumbing and routing a new MP line to feed those
• adding a bunch of new circuit breakers somewhere
• connecting all of those electrical bits at the panel
• routing two electrical harnesses through the firewall
• finding homes and installing two coil packs in front of the firewall
• routing new spark plug wires AND maintaining 1/4" separation between wires for the entire run
• R&R the prop to install the timing ring on the crank shaft, and the associated bracket and sensor, plus routing that wire over the engine case

I think it will be worth it, and I'm very much looking forward to being done with the D3000, even though it has not given me too much grief in 17 years.  Working on and improving my plane is my primary hobby these days, so that is what I do.  If I had to pay $5k+ for someone to install the $6k hardware, I might be happy keeping a D3000 going for a while longer.  YMMV.  I hope to give a PIREP soon enough, but it was below zero again this morning so I will not be working on it today. 

FWIW, I am hanging on to one of my D3000 mags, key switch, and left the P-lead wires intact just in case I need to go back to what I had...  Hopefully I'll be selling all of those this spring.

[A64Pilot]

I guess I’m lucky, mine has never given me any trouble, 10 years running one I guess, saying that of course will jinx me.

Maxwell’s magneto overhauled my last one but I think he likely retired long ago.

But I’ve never had a plug foul either, but last airplanes I ran fine wires and cleaned them every oil change too.

I’m sort of conducting an experiment with the Mooney, they are massive and I’ve never cleaned or rotated them waiting to see when one will foul, it will of course happen just wondering how long it will take.

[toto]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I guess I’m lucky, mine has never given me any trouble, 10 years running one I guess, saying that of course will jinx me.

Maxwell’s magneto overhauled my last one but I think he likely retired long ago.

But I’ve never had a plug foul either, but last airplanes I ran fine wires and cleaned them every oil change too.

I’m sort of conducting an experiment with the Mooney, they are massive and I’ve never cleaned or rotated them waiting to see when one will foul, it will of course happen just wondering how long it will take.

I’ve also had zero problems with my D3000, aside from the fact that I paid a king’s ransom for an IRAN. 

I did have a lot of plug fouling issues before I switched to fine wires a couple of years ago. I’ve had zero plug fouling since then.

[Grant_Waite]

11 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I'm still working on my conversion that I started in September.  I work slow, and my hangar is not heated so I have not been out there as much as I'd like with well below average winter temps this season.  Holiday commitments, and dealing with my father's passing in November have all prevented me from finishing as quickly as I had hoped.

I believe EA estimates 50 hours of installation hours.  They cannot give an exact figure because every application and every individual plane is different in terms of the integration required.  I'll probably be closer to 100 hours of labor before I'm finished, but I work slow.  It is a SUBSTANTIAL installation task. 

• A backup battery in the tail
• routing a harness to the panel (and their harness is way too short!)
• fabricating a new key switch panel to hold their big mag switch and start button
• finding a home for the backup battery meter and switch panel
• finding homes for two controller boxes behind the panel
• plumbing and routing a new MP line to feed those
• adding a bunch of new circuit breakers somewhere
• connecting all of those electrical bits at the panel
• routing two electrical harnesses through the firewall
• finding homes and installing two coil packs in front of the firewall
• routing new spark plug wires AND maintaining 1/4" separation between wires for the entire run
• R&R the prop to install the timing ring on the crank shaft, and the associated bracket and sensor, plus routing that wire over the engine case

I think it will be worth it, and I'm very much looking forward to being done with the D3000, even though it has not given me too much grief in 17 years.  Working on and improving my plane is my primary hobby these days, so that is what I do.  If I had to pay $5k+ for someone to install the $6k hardware, I might be happy keeping a D3000 going for a while longer.  YMMV.  I hope to give a PIREP soon enough, but it was below zero again this morning so I will not be working on it today. 

FWIW, I am hanging on to one of my D3000 mags, key switch, and left the P-lead wires intact just in case I need to go back to what I had...  Hopefully I'll be selling all of those this spring.

Sorry to hear about your dad, never easy on anyone. Thanks for all the valuable info, on installing one of these conversions. It’s a whole lot more stuff when you list it all out. I’m guessing it would be close to, 10/11k all said and done if a mechanic at 100+ an hour does it. At least that’s what rates are in Florida. Surprisingly the weather down here has been shit, with 1 to 2 fronts a week. Temperature’s haven’t been bad. Cold for us Floridians for a few days then back to 70s. 

[Grant_Waite]

5 hours ago, toto said:

I’ve also had zero problems with my D3000, aside from the fact that I paid a king’s ransom for an IRAN. 

I did have a lot of plug fouling issues before I switched to fine wires a couple of years ago. I’ve had zero plug fouling since then.

Previous owner swears by fine wires, it was the first thing he put in when he bought it 17 years ago. Wish they were tempest and not champion but that’s fine. He used and swore by tcp it’s a lead scavenging additive but I haven’t used it but once or twice and don’t plan to continue it. I lean aggressively on the ground and fly the plane like normal. Hopefully I won’t have any issues. Not to mention it says on the can of tcp, that’s highly flammable and not to store in the aircraft. Makes it a pia because I won’t by fuel at my home airport. It’s going for 7.60 and 4.60 10 minutes away… no brainer there. 

[A64Pilot]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:02 AM, Grant_Waite said:

Sorry to hear about your dad, never easy on anyone. Thanks for all the valuable info, on installing one of these conversions. It’s a whole lot more stuff when you list it all out. I’m guessing it would be close to, 10/11k all said and done if a mechanic at 100+ an hour does it. At least that’s what rates are in Florida. Surprisingly the weather down here has been shit, with 1 to 2 fronts a week. Temperature’s haven’t been bad. Cold for us Floridians for a few days then back to 70s. 

$100 an hour for an A&P, $180 an hour for Motorhome work, and that’s not at a big chain like Camping World, Lord knows what it would be there.

This Motorhome has me thinking that flying isn’t all that expensive, it costs a LOT more in fuel to go the same distance, mechanics are almost twice as expensive, and even insurance that we all complain about is higher than my Mooney.

But I get it, I was considering an electronic replacement until I heard how much work it was. I don’t particularly enjoy working on airplanes or I would build one.

Neighbor is building two RV 14’s, he bought two Lycoming FI 390’s, they came with two E Mags and adapters in the heads to use Auto Iridium Nippon Denso plugs in them.

Bt Emags I mean electronic I don’t know who makes them.

[RoundTwo]

Other than the D3000 falling off, or rotating out of timing because of an installation error related to reused washers or improperly installed clamps, does the EA solve any other weak points? I have been thinking about this as a possibility for a summer project.

[A64Pilot]

I think it’s more of a desire to modernize, electronic in theory should make starting easier as it has full voltage at a low RPM and it could lower fuel burn a little and it could be more reliable, I say could because when was the last time you saw a car with a failed ignition system? Maybe an occasional coil but that’s rare.

However I’ve never had any starting issues on any aircraft I’ve owned with mags, and I strongly suspicion that any fuel savings are minimal at best and no matter how much you would fly, it would never equal the cost of going electronic.

Some just want modern and like to spend money “improving” their toy, and there is nothing wrong with that, if it gives them pleasure it’s money well spent.

I’ve also noticed an internet Forum phenomenon on other sites, one prolific poster posts how great XX is and many forum members buy it and post how great it is and how great life is now with XX etc. It’s just human nature to want to be in with the crowd, smart marketers take advantage of this of course, it’s I think the reason why “brands” are so important. 

A lot of three blade props are sold because they do look cool for example

[KSMooniac]

I'm definitely in the "improving their toy" crowd as I continue my long journey to make my J into the perfect J for me.   As I mentioned, it is my hobby as well as my useful transportation tool, so the "cost" of installation for me is essentially zero in my own world of self-rationalization.  I do believe it will be worth it with improved performance (timing advance at LOP cruise) along with simpler hot starts, and I won't mourn the loss of 500 hour mag inspections.

The EA kit does offer increased redundancy over the D3000 configuration.  You end up with two completely independent systems... two sources of timing instead of one, two separate coils, two controller boxes, plus a backup battery dedicated to one of the ignitions so that you can keep flying if you lose the primary electrical system.  I don't think anyone can argue that is not more redundant than stock.  Having said that, I made dang sure my D3000 was installed properly with new washers and the proper clamps and never had an issue with it slipping or falling off.  I know others have had those issues.

For those with two regular mags already, I will confirm that dropping in a surefly would be far, far easier and likely get you much/most of the benefits.  It was not an option for me and many others with the A3B6D engine, though.

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The EA kit does offer increased redundancy over the D3000 configuration.  You end up with two completely independent systems... two sources of timing instead of one, two separate coils, two controller boxes, plus a backup battery dedicated to one of the ignitions so that you can keep flying if you lose the primary electrical system.  I don't think anyone can argue that is not more redundant than stock.

I would argue that that does not improve redundancy over the stock system, and that reliability will be questionable due to the increased complexity and increased part count.

Whether or not it improves "performance" metrics that are important to you is a separate issue.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

I would argue that that does not improve redundancy over the stock system, and that reliability will be questionable due to the increased complexity and increased part count.

Sort of like the way a twin is better than a single because of the redundancy?

[AJ88V]

Bumping this thread because I'm looking at 201s and not thrilled with the twinsey mags. 

Does the Electroaire really improve the situation?  And what's the installed cost?  Per comments above, it sounds like it could pass $10K.

Am I making too much of this issue?

Thanks!

[Thedude]

There are other threads on here about this subject. Some say it works well, some say it's junk and the reverted the change. There's quite a bit that has to be setup with a small backup battery etc, so over 10k sounds right to me from when I started researching the posts on this. I think also the electroair may have a single point of failure for how it gets the engine rpm for it's timing, but I can't remember.

[toto]

1 hour ago, AJ88V said:

Bumping this thread because I'm looking at 201s and not thrilled with the twinsey mags. 

Does the Electroaire really improve the situation?  And what's the installed cost?  Per comments above, it sounds like it could pass $10K.

Am I making too much of this issue?

Thanks!

As someone who flies a dual-mag J model, I’ve read a lot about this and thought a lot about it. The reality seems to be that the Bendix dual mag is reliable, and if maintained by the book, very rarely fails. I’d love to see an Electroair replacement that’s more efficient and equally reliable, but I think we need more hours flown to make that judgment. For the moment, I think there are better ways to spend 10 grand - and that would have a bigger impact on safety. 

[201Steve]

@AJ88V it’s really not a bad system. Most of its reputation in the peanut gallery derives from the early years where the mounting clamps were probably not up to the task of holding the weight of a heavier magneto. Some of them fell off over the years. The latest iteration of clamp seems to have resolved this, assuming the installing mechanic follows the service instruction for torque values and use of proper new star washer. They work the same, your just moving the common drive from inside the accessory case to outside the accessory case. Same number of moving gears. 
 

The only other reason I can think of as a demerit is that, the only place to get parts from is Kelly Aerospace. It’s really not that mag shops can’t work on them all the same as a standard mag, they don’t like the parts supplier being Kelly. 
 

I would argue it’s all a crap shoot on parts quality nowadays anyway. 

[Thedude]

My recent (and first) annual with my plane had my mechanic telling me the lower mounting bracket for my dual mag was missing, most likely due to it being under torqued. That was terrifying to hear and does make me concerned that there's one failure point in the sense that if it comes off the engine, the engine stops, but I haven't seen an alternative that seems more robust overall.

[N201MKTurbo]

7 hours ago, Thedude said:

My recent (and first) annual with my plane had my mechanic telling me the lower mounting bracket for my dual mag was missing, most likely due to it being under torqued. That was terrifying to hear and does make me concerned that there's one failure point in the sense that if it comes off the engine, the engine stops, but I haven't seen an alternative that seems more robust overall.

I have never had a mag nut come loose. It is hard to imagine someone being that careless.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have never had a mag nut come loose. It is hard to imagine someone being that careless.

Wish I could say the same.  A couple of months after my Surefly was first installed, I started noticing a few drips of oil on my nosewheel tire after each flight without an obvious source.  After 3 or 4 instances of this, I took a much closer look.  Glad I didn't wait longer :/

[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, DXB said:

Wish I could say the same.  A couple of months after my Surefly was first installed, I started noticing a few drips of oil on my nosewheel tire after each flight without an obvious source.  After 3 or 4 instances of this, I took a much closer look.  Glad I didn't wait longer :/

Do you have the correct gasket? When you have a mag with wings, you should use a gasket with wings. I don’t see the gasket under the mounting flange. Maybe I just can’t see it.

[DXB]

41 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Do you have the correct gasket? When you have a mag with wings, you should use a gasket with wings. I don’t see the gasket under the mounting flange. Maybe I just can’t see it.

The Surefly is sealed by an integral O-ring and doesn't require a gasket per manufacturer install manual.