M20D wing damage

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Very little guidance indeed. In the mid 60s my dad owned a C model. He snagged a guy-wire with one of the wings while taxing out to begin a multi-week XC. The mechanic on the field pulled the dent and removed the creases to the extent needed to bring the airfoil back into profile. He then shaped a sheet of 2024 over the wound and affixed it with blind rivets. By my father’s recollection it took lees than 2 hours and he was on his way just slightly behind schedule. He put ~20hrs on that temporary repair and noticed no adverse effects (though he might have in a stall). Plane was repaired after he returned with factory sheet metal. I’m pretty sure that no one would do a temporary repair like that today. 

 

58 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

Can a wing mounted landing light be installed in that area, instead of replacing the skin?

 

2 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

The paint on the leading edge is damaged. I'd try to pull the dents but not sure if the wing would be structurally sound. I guess I could get a look by removing some inspenction panels. 

Similar wing damage was discussed in 2015. (actually 2 MS members said they had damage in basically the same place - one hit a tug, the other a guy wire).  The pics are gone due to changes in the MS server but one person also suggested adding the landing light in the damage location.

If you do consider reskinning proceed with caution.  A former MS member, Clarence M20Doc, who owns the respected MSC in Ontario Canada said the "it is not a repair that our shop would consider".  His point was that, unless the shop specializes in aircraft aluminum repair,  most shops will overpromise and underdeliver.

 

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

The paint on the leading edge is damaged. I'd try to pull the dents but not sure if the wing would be structurally sound. I guess I could get a look by removing some inspenction panels. 

Need to verify internal damage.It’s obvious in the pictures that there is some localized stress around a few rivets. It’s be good to see if there is internal damage to ribs or stringers. As @1980Mooney points out, replacing that skin is specialized work. The wing was built up in a jig. It has to conform to factory specs.

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Very little guidance indeed. In the mid 60s my dad owned a C model. He snagged a guy-wire with one of the wings while taxing out to begin a multi-week XC. The mechanic on the field pulled the dent and removed the creases to the extent needed to bring the airfoil back into profile. He then shaped a sheet of 2024 over the wound and affixed it with blind rivets. By my father’s recollection it took lees than 2 hours and he was on his way just slightly behind schedule. He put ~20hrs on that temporary repair and noticed no adverse effects (though he might have in a stall). Plane was repaired after he returned with factory sheet metal. I’m pretty sure that no one would do a temporary repair like that today. 

 

1 hour ago, Ron McBride said:

Can a wing mounted landing light be installed in that area, instead of replacing the skin?

 

15 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

The paint on the leading edge is damaged. I'd try to pull the dents but not sure if the wing would be structurally sound. I guess I could get a look by removing some inspenction panels. 

Here is a recent (2022) repair of wing leading edge damage using a landing light (with pics before and after).

 

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, Ron McBride said:

Can a wing mounted landing light be installed in that area, instead of replacing the skin?

It’s probably not at the right wing station for the factory light which also wouldn’t cover the upper portion of the damaged skin. Probably quite a bit more expensive than fixing the damage.

[cctsurf]

I would look for a shop that is used to working on spray planes...  They repair damage like this all the time...

[ptwffz]

19 hours ago, cctsurf said:

I would look for a shop that is used to working on spray planes...  They repair damage like this all the time...

That's crossed my mind.

[M20F-1968]

Call Beegale's Aircraft in Colorado.  They are one of the best structural repair shops in the US.  The plane should be flyable to them.  You might verify this with Mooney or a DAR.  A DAR could give you a ferry permit.  The damage looks too much to be straightened.  Replacing the skin is likely.  You may or may not be able to get a skin from Mooney as some of the skins for the older airplanes are not exactly like the newer ones.  

You need to jig the wing and airplane before removing the skin to retain its original shape.  This is the type of work Beegles does well.  Their work is as good if not better than the factory's work.   I have used them a couple of times during my rebuild with no regrets.

John Breda

 

[A64Pilot]

On 11/8/2023 at 6:07 PM, cctsurf said:

I would look for a shop that is used to working on spray planes...  They repair damage like this all the time...

We even went to the extent that on a Thrush the ribs on the Fwd 6” or so aren’t riveted to the skin and they have about 1/4” gap between the nose of the rib and the leading edge skin, smack something and the nose deforms, if bad enough the nose rib just bends out of the way.

We went to very thick leading edge skins where out competitor went to bonding two skins together, which pretty much means your buying new skins from them because bonded skins aren’t really repairable.

‘One of our customers in South America makes their own carbon fiber covers and bonds them on, seemed to work

On most aircraft the leading edges are really more of a fairing, they contribute little to the structure of the wing.

[A64Pilot]

That dent would be insignificant on a Thrush, but we used a NACA 4412 airfoil with a 1.5 degree washout, that’s a very conservative relatively high lift but pretty high drag airfoil that has exceedingly good tolerance for things like dents, ice build up etc. Very forgiving.

However the Mooney airfoil I’m sure isn’t nearly as forgiving, because it’s so efficient TANSTASFL 

Only reason you would need a factory skin is if you don’t have access to a roller to roll the leading edge shape, rollers are pretty common. This shouldn’t be a difficult repair but will be a labor intensive one.

Oh, there IS guidance it’s AC 43.13, newer aircraft have structural repair manuals, older ones relied on FAA guidance. The FAA has been pushing manufacturers HARD to publish structural repair manuals, because they don’t want the liability anymore and have been gutting 43.13 of a lot of the most useful data. They, the FAA have tried taking the interesting tact that without a structural repair manual which among other things list whats acceptable damage, that without that, that means NO damage is allowed, which is silly.

On edit, I believe the location of the ribs is easy to determine by the rivet lines.

I believe if I were doing the repair I’d cut out the damaged area out and roll a flush patch to fit, with just a little skill a flush patch is invisible, most bad leading edge dents on Ag planes are flush patched if it’s a nice looking airplane.

I had two great BIG Vacuum venturi’s on my 140 that I removed, left screw holes and a 1” hole. A friend who is talented cut out that section and put in flush patches that when painted disappeared without even body putty, and this is on the beer can thin C-140 fuselage skin.

See pic, it’s been 15 years and for some reason the white paint didn’t bond to the rivets, poor prep I’m sure. With just a tiny skin coat of body putty you would never know the rivets are there and you can’t see the patch even without putty.

 

[ptwffz]

16 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

Call Beegale's Aircraft in Colorado.  They are one of the best structural repair shops in the US.  The plane should be flyable to them.  You might verify this with Mooney or a DAR.  A DAR could give you a ferry permit.  The damage looks too much to be straightened.  Replacing the skin is likely.  You may or may not be able to get a skin from Mooney as some of the skins for the older airplanes are not exactly like the newer ones.  

You need to jig the wing and airplane before removing the skin to retain its original shape.  This is the type of work Beegles does well.  Their work is as good if not better than the factory's work.   I have used them a couple of times during my rebuild with no regrets.

John Breda

 

Beegale's gave me a quote of 15K when they came to Falcon Field to quote other aircraft. That quote was considering the repair was done at their facility in Coloado. I thought they did mobile repairs?

[ptwffz]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

We even went to the extent that on a Thrush the ribs on the Fwd 6” or so aren’t riveted to the skin and they have about 1/4” gap between the nose of the rib and the leading edge skin, smack something and the nose deforms, if bad enough the nose rib just bends out of the way.

We went to very thick leading edge skins where out competitor went to bonding two skins together, which pretty much means your buying new skins from them because bonded skins aren’t really repairable.

‘One of our customers in South America makes their own carbon fiber covers and bonds them on, seemed to work

On most aircraft the leading edges are really more of a fairing, they contribute little to the structure of the wing.

I guess I need to figure out how far aft of the leading edge on a Mooney does the structural section start. Hard to believe this is a 15K repair. So much differing opinion on the matter. I'd do a patch like you mentioned but I need to find an honest expert that would green light such a fix without just seeing dollors in their eyes. If such a fix is possible with a Mooney wing.

[EricJ]

11 hours ago, ptwffz said:

I guess I need to figure out how far aft of the leading edge on a Mooney does the structural section start. Hard to believe this is a 15K repair. So much differing opinion on the matter. I'd do a patch like you mentioned but I need to find an honest expert that would green light such a fix without just seeing dollors in their eyes. If such a fix is possible with a Mooney wing.

If it isn't evident from outside whether any ribs may be damaged, you can remove some of the under-wing inspection plates and run a borescope inside to check the leading edges of the ribs.   Even if ribs are damaged, they may be repairable, but consult with people who do it a lot.    Unfortunately, AZ does not have a lot of that any more that caters to the general public.

+1 that some of the modern dent repair technique may work well.    A hangar neighbor completely repaired a wing tip tank that got badly caved in by a bird strike using the little pull-tab things glued to the outside.   Came out great.   

And that sort of work is best done in a shop, so I wouldn't expect Beegles to do much mobile other than temporary patches for transport to their shop.

It's good that you're not in a hurry.   Take time to explore all the options.

[ptwffz]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

If it isn't evident from outside whether any ribs may be damaged, you can remove some of the under-wing inspection plates and run a borescope inside to check the leading edges of the ribs.   Even if ribs are damaged, they may be repairable, but consult with people who do it a lot.    Unfortunately, AZ does not have a lot of that any more that caters to the general public.

+1 that some of the modern dent repair technique may work well.    A hangar neighbor completely repaired a wing tip tank that got badly caved in by a bird strike using the little pull-tab things glued to the outside.   Came out great.   

And that sort of work is best done in a shop, so I wouldn't expect Beegles to do much mobile other than temporary patches for transport to their shop.

It's good that you're not in a hurry.   Take time to explore all the options.

Good advice.  I'll try to scope the leading edge and go from there. Still waiting to hear from my AI. He's MIA.

[PT20J]

There is no structure in the wing behind the leading edge to the spar outboard of the fuel tanks except the for the ribs. 

For comparison, the previous owner of my airplane bashed the right wing in 2017. It was fixed by Maxwell. They replaced two ribs, a skin, a wingtip lens and a few other minor parts for $1327 in parts and $4085 (43 hrs) labor. They primed the repair and scuffed the top of both wings and painted them for $2168. Total cost with tax and shipping was $7803.40.  Keep in mind this was six years ago. Still, it's a lot less than $15K and you don't have to paint the top of the wings which adds cost if you don't care about a slight paint mismatch.

You might call Don and send pictures for a second opinion. He was crazy busy when I was there in April with planes backed up all over the ramp and in hangars, so he might not be your quickest option. But, I'd give it a shot. I might also call the Mooney service department and see what they say. I believe they are actively seeking work to generate revenue and the parts department is close by .

Skip

[ptwffz]

47 minutes ago, PT20J said:

There is no structure in the wing behind the leading edge to the spar outboard of the fuel tanks except the for the ribs. 

For comparison, the previous owner of my airplane bashed the right wing in 2017. It was fixed by Maxwell. They replaced two ribs, a skin, a wingtip lens and a few other minor parts for $1327 in parts and $4085 (43 hrs) labor. They primed the repair and scuffed the top of both wings and painted them for $2168. Total cost with tax and shipping was $7803.40.  Keep in mind this was six years ago. Still, it's a lot less than $15K and you don't have to paint to top of the wings which adds cost if you don't care about a slight paint mismatch.

You might call Don and send pictures for a second opinion. He was crazy busy when I was there in April with planes backed up all over the ramp and in hangars, so he might not be your quickest option. But, I'd give it a shot. I might also call the Mooney service department and see what they say. I believe they are actively seeking work to generate revenue and the parts department is close by .

Skip

That's a huge price difference even taking into account for our ridiculous inflation. Excuse my ignorance but is Maxwell in Minnesota and is Don the owner? Also, is the main Mooney service center in Kerrville? I've owned the Mooney since 1991 and until now been lucky to not need a repair education. I appreciate the reply. 

[PT20J]

1 minute ago, ptwffz said:

That's a huge price difference even taking into account for our ridiculous inflation. Excuse my ignorance but is Maxwell in Minnesota and is Don the owner? Also, is the main Mooney service center in Kerrville? I've owned the Mooney since 1991 and until now been lucky to not need a repair education. I appreciate the reply. 

Don Maxwell is the owner of Don Maxwell Aviation Services in Longview, TX (KGGG). Maxwell is one of the oldest and best known Mooney Service Centers. https://www.donmaxwell.com/

The factory in Kerrville operates a service center:

Mooney Factory Repair (Maintenance & Repair Only - No Part Sales)
165 Al Mooney Road North Kerrville, TEXAS 78028 United States
Email: fsc@mooney.com
Phone: 830.792.2052

Skip

[ptwffz]

3 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Don Maxwell is the owner of Don Maxwell Aviation Services in Longview, TX (KGGG). Maxwell is one of the oldest and best known Mooney Service Centers. https://www.donmaxwell.com/

The factory in Kerrville operates a service center:

Mooney Factory Repair (Maintenance & Repair Only - No Part Sales)
165 Al Mooney Road North Kerrville, TEXAS 78028 United States
Email: fsc@mooney.com
Phone: 830.792.2052

Skip

Thanks for the links Skip! I'll give them a shout. I was doing a Google search and got Maxwell Propeller in Minnesota, embarrassed to say. I've been on a factory tour once. Might be revisiting the area.

15k was a shocker. 

[ptwffz]

3 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

Thanks for the links Skip! I'll give them a shout. I was doing a Google search and got Maxwell Propeller in Minnesota, embarrassed to say. I've been on a factory tour once. Might be revisiting the area.

15k was a shocker. 

Were you able to ferry the plane for repairs? I'm hoping the damage isn't so bad that it can't be flown. 

[PT20J]

4 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

Were you able to ferry the plane for repairs? I'm hoping the damage isn't so bad that it can't be flown. 

It was the previous owner so I wasn’t involved. I would get your local maintainer to work out what needs to be done to get a ferry permit. I once helped get a Beech 18 ready to ferry after it ran off the runway and hit a sign when a brake failed. We got some sheet aluminum and wrapped it around the leading edge to reform the airfoil shape and pop riveted it to the skin and sealed the edges with duct tape.

[ptwffz]

48 minutes ago, PT20J said:

It was the previous owner so I wasn’t involved. I would get your local maintainer to work out what needs to be done to get a ferry permit. I once helped get a Beech 18 ready to ferry after it ran off the runway and hit a sign when a brake failed. We got some sheet aluminum and wrapped it around the leading edge to reform the airfoil shape and pop riveted it to the skin and sealed the edges with duct tape.

My son and I have r/c planes with lots of tape. I'm good at that.

[M20F-1968]

On 11/12/2023 at 11:57 PM, ptwffz said:

Beegale's gave me a quote of 15K when they came to Falcon Field to quote other aircraft. That quote was considering the repair was done at their facility in Coloado. I thought they did mobile repairs?

15K is not out of line for a shop of Beegle's quality and the amount of work needed.

John Breda

[ptwffz]

1 hour ago, M20F-1968 said:

15K is not out of line for a shop of Beegle's quality and the amount of work needed.

John Breda

They must use some high quality bubble gum and rappers. 

[PT20J]

12 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

They must use some high quality bubble gum and rappers. 

Keep in mind that they are the only ones that have seen your airplane and they might have noticed something not obvious from the pictures. Beegles has an excellent reputation for quality sheet metal work. That said, Maxwell also has a good sheet metal guy and the factory should be able to do a good job. But you'll have to talk to them. The repair I quoted was out at the wing tip (last two ribs) and may have been simpler to repair. No two are the quite the same and repairs on airplanes are expensive.

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, ptwffz said:

They must use some high quality bubble gum and rappers. 

They probably quoted removing and installing the entire leading edge, plus repairing any rib damage, plus repaint to match.   The metal work is labor intensive.

 

[SheryLoewen]

Using a skin from another wing is not a option. A new skin from Mooney would be less than $500 Plus shipping. (lucky it did not involve the fuel tank) Replacing the skin would be the best repair.  It's a matter of drilling out a lot of rivets and riveting. 

Paul Loewen