Moving a radio in the panel. How tough a job is this?

[Echo]

My COM 2 is located on the right side of the panel.  I want to relocate to the center stack.  How big a job would this be to complete?  What is involved?

[47U]

Kind of impossible to know without looking at the harnesses… but, realistically, I’d plan on treating the Com 2 tray relocation to the center stack  as a new install.  That’s your best option to insure a reliable radio.

You could get lucky untying the wire bundles and moving the tray over, but you don’t want to end up with a hack-job.  That could be nothing but trouble down the road.  

Just my opinion… good luck.

[carusoam]

Really depends on if there is any extra wire length to allow the radio to move to the new location… you might be able to look and see what is back there…

My M20C would have had a much better chance for that…

The newer planes with radios still installed by the factory… limiting extra wire was one of their weight saving priorities…. 
 

Good luck!

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[0TreeLemur]

I would like to do the same in my J.   I asked my A&P to do it and after working on it for a while, he said that it would require rebuilding the entire panel because (1) the KFC-150 autopilot and EA-100 box that connect the autopilot to the Aspen both have a ton of wires in the center stack, and (2) the radio racks are super well riveted in place.   He removed the rack for the ADF that I had him take out and it took him six hours and showered the area with aluminum shavings.  Do you have the 201-style windshield?   If not, then maybe the access through the instrument bay panels will help.  

Maybe if your racks don't have eight rivets in them and if  you don't have an autopilot and its accoutrements in the way it won't be too bad.   Seek professional help. 

[Echo]

This is an E Model and the audio panel is in the center stack.  The radio is going to be relocated right above it from the co-pilot side.  The co-pilot side will have an Aera 700 series panel dock.  I assumed that since I am going closer to audio panel it would have enough wire in the existing bundle.

[ArtVandelay]

This is an E Model and the audio panel is in the center stack.  The radio is going to be relocated right above it from the co-pilot side.  The co-pilot side will have an Aera 700 series panel dock.  I assumed that since I am going closer to audio panel it would have enough wire in the existing bundle.

Antenna wire, HSI wire, possibly wires to the ADSB box, power wires, etc.

Stick your head underneath and check out what kind of slack you see in the wires.

[Aerodon]

I started to reply to your audio panel question and then got distracted.  Old installations are always a mess, and the audio panel is the centre of the universe in the panel, so it is worth doing right.  If you are moving things around, you may as well start again.

There are guys around that will wire a complete stack for you for under $2k, including wiring.  Retired people, moonlighting techs etc. without the shop overhead.  It's probably a days work to take out all the old avionics and side panels, and another days work to install a 'panel ready' stack.

I would do some layouts, and work out what you really want for the next few years and then do it.  

 

Aerodon

 

[Echo]

2 hours ago, Aerodon said:

I started to reply to your audio panel question and then got distracted.  Old installations are always a mess, and the audio panel is the centre of the universe in the panel, so it is worth doing right.  If you are moving things around, you may as well start again.

There are guys around that will wire a complete stack for you for under $2k, including wiring.  Retired people, moonlighting techs etc. without the shop overhead.  It's probably a days work to take out all the old avionics and side panels, and another days work to install a 'panel ready' stack.

I would do some layouts, and work out what you really want for the next few years and then do it.  

 

Aerodon

 

I know what I want.  I existing audio panel works great.  I added an intercom to my last plane and it was no big deal (cost and time).  Why in the world would I rewire the whole audio panel when all is working fine now?  This doesn't make sense to me.  This is NOT a whiz bang panel.  I am a VFR pilot.  The two coms work great (Narco MK12 and TKM).  The nav heads are taking up space.  One is where I want my engine monitor on pilot side.  I had two essential questions: 

1. Will a PS Engineering stereo intercom WORK with the KA124 audio panel?

2. How many wires go from intercom to existing Audio panel?

I will try and find somebody with competence to undertake.  Avionics shop was NOT even in ball park on price.  

I appreciate your input.  Scott

[carusoam]

Echo,

Keep in mind…

When organizing the center stack…

the depth at the top has the inverted Y tube back there…

the audio panel traditionally goes in the top spot because it’s depth isn’t very long…

Some radios are so long… they may bump into the inverted Y…

Best regards,

-a-

[Echo]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Echo,

Keep in mind…

When organizing the center stack…

the depth at the top has the inverted Y tube back there…

the audio panel traditionally goes in the top spot because it’s depth isn’t very long…

Some radios are so long… they may bump into the inverted Y…

Best regards,

-a-

Yes.  There is currently a finisher plate on top and bottom of stack.  The KA134 is only an inch so takes up very little room.  The TKM is thinner than the Brittain auto pilot control that is being removed.  Hoping the PS3000 will fit on top without lowering all the existing center stack.  I have room on co-pilot side for intercom as well.

[Aerodon]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

I know what I want.  I existing audio panel works great.  I added an intercom to my last plane and it was no big deal (cost and time).  Why in the world would I rewire the whole audio panel when all is working fine now?  This doesn't make sense to me.  This is NOT a whiz bang panel.  I am a VFR pilot.  The two coms work great (Narco MK12 and TKM).  The nav heads are taking up space.  One is where I want my engine monitor on pilot side.  I had two essential questions: 

1. Will a PS Engineering stereo intercom WORK with the KA124 audio panel?

2. How many wires go from intercom to existing Audio panel?

I will try and find somebody with competence to undertake.  Avionics shop was NOT even in ball park on price.  

I appreciate your input.  Scott

Scott,

I found a wiring diagram for the KA124, it looks the same as the KMA24 (44 pin edge connector).  So that is pretty likely compatible with the bottom connector on a PS7000.  If you are lucky, th only thing that needs to be done is replace the pilots audio with stereo wiring.  Then you add the new connector (another 44 pin edge connector) for all the music and stereo headsets - probably another 20 pins or so. 

Probably about the same amount of work as adding a standalone stereo intercom (I like PMA3000's)

The problem we are all facing in many areas of the economy - when you have more work than you know what to do with, start on the $120k avionics upgrades where you can make $20k margin on ordering the avionics.  And get the customer to pre-pay for the avionics.  Completely eliminate the scrappy jobs - the ones that take up just as much hangar space and prevent you from doing the former.

I think the hardest part is finding someone to help, not the technical issues.

Don

 

 

 

 

[Echo]

52 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Scott,

I found a wiring diagram for the KA124, it looks the same as the KMA24 (44 pin edge connector).  So that is pretty likely compatible with the bottom connector on a PS7000.  If you are lucky, th only thing that needs to be done is replace the pilots audio with stereo wiring.  Then you add the new connector (another 44 pin edge connector) for all the music and stereo headsets - probably another 20 pins or so. 

Probably about the same amount of work as adding a standalone stereo intercom (I like PMA3000's)

The problem we are all facing in many areas of the economy - when you have more work than you know what to do with, start on the $120k avionics upgrades where you can make $20k margin on ordering the avionics.  And get the customer to pre-pay for the avionics.  Completely eliminate the scrappy jobs - the ones that take up just as much hangar space and prevent you from doing the former.

I think the hardest part is finding someone to help, not the technical issues.

Don

 

 

 

 

Hi Don,

Yes, sorry for confusion.  I have the KA134 Audio Panel installed in the plane.  I purchased a PMA3000 Intercom.  I am only having Pilot/passenger headsets wired.  The plane never had an intercom.  The previous owner/pilot used the plane solo.  I had a KMA24 in my first Mooney and had a PMA3000 installed in that plane.  I loved that set up.  last plane had a PS7000 so I purchased a used one thinking I would replace the KA134.  I like the KA134 audio panel. It is simple and compact.  Decided to keep it as coms are working great and add the PMA3000 to have stereo music input and be able to speak with my wife Kelly while traveling.  Scott

[bcg]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:35 AM, Echo said:

This is an E Model and the audio panel is in the center stack.  The radio is going to be relocated right above it from the co-pilot side.  The co-pilot side will have an Aera 700 series panel dock.  I assumed that since I am going closer to audio panel it would have enough wire in the existing bundle.

There are some structural members in the middle, behind the dash at the top.  It's why that space is often left empty and why the GFC 500 (or something else shallow) gets put there.  You can see them in the pic of my current mess attached.  You aren't going to get any COM radio in the top of a center radio stack in a short body, there just isn't room for it.

What you might be able to do is rearrange the whole stack and put something else up top, that may or may not require harness work depending on how much slack is there.  Minimum, if everything is perfect for it to just get moved around without any wiring work, I'd say 10 - 15 hours.  Realistically, it's probably 20 - 30, maybe a lot more, just depends on what's going on behind the panel.

Avionics and panel work is always a bigger job than you think it's going to be.  Personally, unless you're adding something new, I wouldn't mess with it.  The cost will be all labor that you won't get back when selling and you don't gain anything functional, it's just a better aesthetic and maybe a bit more ergonomic.  I won't do it again if I can avoid it, next plane will have the avionics I want when I buy it, even if it takes me 2 or 3 years to find it.

[Echo]

35 minutes ago, bcg said:

There are some structural members in the middle, behind the dash at the top.  It's why that space is often left empty and why the GFC 500 (or something else shallow) gets put there.  You can see them in the pic of my current mess attached.  You aren't going to get any COM radio in the top of a center radio stack in a short body, there just isn't room for it.

What you might be able to do is rearrange the whole stack and put something else up top, that may or may not require harness work depending on how much slack is there.  Minimum, if everything is perfect for it to just get moved around without any wiring work, I'd say 10 - 15 hours.  Realistically, it's probably 20 - 30, maybe a lot more, just depends on what's going on behind the panel.

Avionics and panel work is always a bigger job than you think it's going to be.  Personally, unless you're adding something new, I wouldn't mess with it.  The cost will be all labor that you won't get back when selling and you don't gain anything functional, it's just a better aesthetic and maybe a bit more ergonomic.  I won't do it again if I can avoid it, next plane will have the avionics I want when I buy it, even if it takes me 2 or 3 years to find it.

I am good.  The radio is going well below that.  There is a Brittain controller in panel NOW that is BELOW the top where finisher is located.  The PS3000 is slim and even with plug not that deep so maybe can go above the repositioned radio without rearranging stack.  There is also a finish plate at bottom of stack now.