1964 M20C Avionics Inquiry

[Shep.G]

Greetings,

PPL here, just crossed over 200 hours total time and will be pursuing my instrument rating shortly.  Purchased this 64 M20C a couple years ago, just after earning my license, as this was the approach I wanted to build time. To what end? I honestly don't know. I already have a good career, but love flying - it could go either way. 

This Mooney has ~3200 TT, ~1950 SMOH. Compressions good at the low to mid - 70s, and my oil analyses from Blackstone have all come back great. Previous owner a wonderful gentleman, who owned and cared for the aircraft for the better part of 3 decades - and rents me out this hangar space, with my hangar mate the A&P that has worked on her for a couple decades as well. Point of this is - I trust the aircraft, and would like  to stick it out with her as long as possible. Will fly past TBO as the engine dictates, with a goal of 2500 SMOH.

Now let's state the obvious. Panel is way outdated, and certainly not IFR capable. With a ballpark budget of 30-35k, what are my options? Goal is Light IFR, both for training and pleasure. I was originally gunning for GTN650, GNC 355, GMA 345, 2 G5's. 

But as I investigate further, I start to see the trend moving towards a necessity for autopilot. GFC 500. I also notice the benefit of a larger display, G3X. The costs begin to mount when adding these products into the equation.

So I look for alternatives. The Dynon/Avidyne Evolution and Skyview combo. I almost got AV30s a couple years back, but saw all the complaints about horrible procession. But I just noticed the tailbeaconX (I already have the tailbeacon) pairs with an AV30 and provides ADSB In/Out as well as transponder capabilities - which seems like a good bang for the buck.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[toto]

I’m not sure what the Dynon/Avidyne Skyview combo is, but the Skyview HDX does not yet have an autopilot available for the Mooney, so you would have to do this piecemeal and add the AP later. 

I was very excited for the HDX for a while and talked to several dealers/installers, but the AP was a big unknown for everyone.

You can do a lot with that budget, and if you find the right shop you’re probably in range for the indicated kit. But a GFC will add substantially to the cost. 

[toto]

Just kind of thinking out loud.. if you wanted a Garmin panel, you could consider the GNC 355 instead of a GTN. That would save about the half the cost of the navigator. 

With a GNC, a GTX, a G5 and a GFC, you could probably get close to your installed budget and have the full setup. 

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/689774

[McMooney]

30 TO 35K, is a bit tight these installers want all the money now a days.

i'd do 2x gi-275s,  you get all the glass minimal change to your panel.

gnc 355  second comm  and waas gps

gtn 375  adsb in/out and backup gps.

 

for ifr training and light stuff you don't absolutely need an autopilot, absolutely great to have but not necc.

by itself, quotes i received for the gfc500 were all in the neighborhood of 30k.

but those could've been go away prices.

 

[Ragsf15e]

Personally, I don’t think backup gps is required.  I’d do 2xg5s or 2xgi275s.  The -275s are nicer but more $$.

gnx-375 provides gps and adsb in/out.

then you get a basic nav/comm that is digital like sl-30 or gnc-255.  That can be combined into display on the g5s or -275s with the gps so now you have both ils and gps on separate boxes.

That should be within your budget.  Then you save up and do the gfc500 when ready.  No reason you need that to do your ifr training.  It’s nice, but you can do IFR training without it.

 

[hammdo]

I have dual G5s, gnc355, kx155, no autopilot. Got my ticket with that. Not a problem…

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Shep.G said:

Greetings,

PPL here, just crossed over 200 hours total time and will be pursuing my instrument rating shortly.  Purchased this 64 M20C a couple years ago, just after earning my license, as this was the approach I wanted to build time. To what end? I honestly don't know. I already have a good career, but love flying - it could go either way. 

This Mooney has ~3200 TT, ~1950 SMOH. Compressions good at the low to mid - 70s, and my oil analyses from Blackstone have all come back great. Previous owner a wonderful gentleman, who owned and cared for the aircraft for the better part of 3 decades - and rents me out this hangar space, with my hangar mate the A&P that has worked on her for a couple decades as well. Point of this is - I trust the aircraft, and would like  to stick it out with her as long as possible. Will fly past TBO as the engine dictates, with a goal of 2500 SMOH.

Now let's state the obvious. Panel is way outdated, and certainly not IFR capable. With a ballpark budget of 30-35k, what are my options? Goal is Light IFR, both for training and pleasure. I was originally gunning for GTN650, GNC 355, GMA 345, 2 G5's. 

But as I investigate further, I start to see the trend moving towards a necessity for autopilot. GFC 500. I also notice the benefit of a larger display, G3X. The costs begin to mount when adding these products into the equation.

So I look for alternatives. The Dynon/Avidyne Evolution and Skyview combo. I almost got AV30s a couple years back, but saw all the complaints about horrible procession. But I just noticed the tailbeaconX (I already have the tailbeacon) pairs with an AV30 and provides ADSB In/Out as well as transponder capabilities - which seems like a good bang for the buck.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Here’s another option in addition to my above…

keep your current adsb tailbeacon and transponder.  Use a portable adsb in device and ipad.

that frees up money for the gps, adi, hsi.

keep your current comm.  get 2xg5s and a gnc-355 comm.  this is basic “glass”, vhf comm, and a waas gps. Probably your cheapest good option.  
 

you’d eventually want to add another nav comm and the autopilot.

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, hammdo said:

I have dual G5s, gnc355, kx155, no autopilot. Got my ticket with that. Not a problem…

 

That’s real nice!  
 

if you can save up for the eventual autopilot, it would make it perfect, but that’s a great training platform and suitable for staying current and some light ifr!

[hammdo]

Lowest I’ve flow is 500 ft actual solo on approach. iPad helps also. Stormscope is great too! Very affordable and effective…

Spot above the audio panel is for the autopilot - gfc500…

-Don

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’d do two GI275s, a GNC 255 nav com and either a 355 gps com or the 375 gps transponder.  If you keep the current com radio I would lean towards the 375.  Having a Garmin compatible ADSB in would be very nice.  I’d also do a primary engine monitor, maybe the GI 275 as well.  That will clean up a ton of space and get you out of maintaining old gauges and sensors.  
 

I would recommend replacing the left panel with a modern 8 pack layout.  The current panel will come out anyway so it’s labor efficient to do it at the same time.  
 

The autopilot is going to be about 20k by itself so that will have to be phase 2. 
 

I spent right about 35k on my panel.  It looks like this now. 

[Shep.G]

23 hours ago, toto said:

Just kind of thinking out loud.. if you wanted a Garmin panel, you could consider the GNC 355 instead of a GTN. That would save about the half the cost of the navigator. 

With a GNC, a GTX, a G5 and a GFC, you could probably get close to your installed budget and have the full setup. 

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/689774

 

23 hours ago, toto said:

I’m not sure what the Dynon/Avidyne Skyview combo is, but the Skyview HDX does not yet have an autopilot available for the Mooney, so you would have to do this piecemeal and add the AP later. 

I was very excited for the HDX for a while and talked to several dealers/installers, but the AP was a big unknown for everyone.

You can do a lot with that budget, and if you find the right shop you’re probably in range for the indicated kit. But a GFC will add substantially to the cost. 

The combo I am referencing is the Skyview paired with the Avidyne IFD 540. 

Although I do not know the cost of this gentleman's setup was, it seemed like the "other route"  if I chose to stray away from Garmin. As he is in the exact same model Mooney, it looked like a very polished end product (also having no AP).

Do you think the G3X is worth nixing the GTN650 for the GNC 355?

[Shep.G]

I notice a few replies mentioning the Garmin ADSB In/Out devices. I do have the tailbeacon for Out, and the Sentry for in....will these not suffice for those necessities? Was hoping to be only searching for GPS/Nav/Comms. Honestly did not even expect to keep the old Narco 810 comm, which is where the 650/355 idea originated from to satisfy 2x GPS / 2x Comm / 1x Nav

[Shep.G]

22 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Personally, I don’t think backup gps is required.

 

If you were to choose redundancy, would it not be for GPS over NAV? 

[Shep.G]

6 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I’d do two GI275s, a GNC 255 nav com and either a 355 gps com or the 375 gps transponder.  If you keep the current com radio I would lean towards the 375.  Having a Garmin compatible ADSB in would be very nice.  I’d also do a primary engine monitor, maybe the GI 275 as well.  That will clean up a ton of space and get you out of maintaining old gauges and sensors.  

I spent right about 35k on my panel.  It looks like this now. 

I recognize the two 275's, 255 and 355 here (?)
Were all three of these purchased as part of the 35k? What else did that price tag entail (new panel etc)

For what it is, this setup looks like it may be the option. Not sure if the Sentry ADSB In will pair, may have to explore another way.

[ArtVandelay]

Don’t forget an engine monitor.

[Shep.G]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Don’t forget an engine monitor.

It's not going to matter that my fuel displays will not work, right?

Resealed both tanks over the last couple years, and failed to fix whatever is causing the level sticks to not read on the panel gauge.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Shep.G said:

If you were to choose redundancy, would it not be for GPS over NAV? 

Both setups i recommended had backup… just not what you think.  You only need 1 gps and 1 nav (ils).  If they are separate, you have two independent approach capabilities.  Yes, gps is used way more, but if it’s jammed or otherwise notamed out, you want an ils backup, not another gps.

So yes, some people have 2 gps, but im very comfortable ifr with 1 gps and 1 nav radio (separate).  I have 2 comm radios which I do recommend.

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, Shep.G said:

If you were to choose redundancy, would it not be for GPS over NAV? 

personally, i'd keep the original radio and spend the cash other places.   I thought about upgrading my kx170b/mx170b until i realized it does the exact same thing as a newer radio.

I will need to replace it for an 8.33 radio in a few years.

 

so if the tail beacon is working for you, i'd go 2x gi-275 and gnc 355  put the rest of the money in my pocket till after overhaul.

dynons are really nice btw.  If you have an ap/ia buddy that can look over your shoulder, id go that way.  dynon or trutrak will eventually get their stuff together, maybe 8)

 

[ArtVandelay]

It's not going to matter that my fuel displays will not work, right?
Resealed both tanks over the last couple years, and failed to fix whatever is causing the level sticks to not read on the panel gauge.

You can check the senders by removing them and check the electrical resistance as you move the arm. If they don’t read correctly or the arm doesn’t move freely they can be sent in to be overhauled.

[toto]

2 hours ago, Shep.G said:

 

The combo I am referencing is the Skyview paired with the Avidyne IFD 540. 

Although I do not know the cost of this gentleman's setup was, it seemed like the "other route"  if I chose to stray away from Garmin. As he is in the exact same model Mooney, it looked like a very polished end product (also having no AP).

Do you think the G3X is worth nixing the GTN650 for the GNC 355?

You didn’t ask this question, but one other comment … if you went the G3X route, you can use the G3X as a control interface for the Garmin autopilot, but the G3X won’t (as far as I know) provide any control functionality for a third-party AP. 

The big difference with the GTN versus the GNC is that the GTN will have a localizer and glideslope receiver as well as GPS. I believe that the GNC has only GPS. But the cost delta is substantial. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, Shep.G said:

I recognize the two 275's, 255 and 355 here (?)
Were all three of these purchased as part of the 35k? What else did that price tag entail (new panel etc)

For what it is, this setup looks like it may be the option. Not sure if the Sentry ADSB In will pair, may have to explore another way.

What was included in the 35k

1. Garmin 355 gps/com - new

2. Garmin 255a nav/com - used

3. Garmin 327 transponder - used

4. Garmin ADI new

5. Garmin HSI  new

6. JPI EDM 830 used

7. Aerospace logic digital fuel gauge and CIES fuel senders - new (this is a highly recommended upgrade)

8. I phone max pro - dedicated for aircraft use - used

I am also using an uavionix wingtip device and a sentry.  It connects to the panel mounted I phone to display traffic weather etc.  it’s a cheap way of getting a lot of the functionality of a true adsb device but it’s not as good.  With a 375 you get a lot of info displayed on your gps as well as the GI 275s.  You can’t import adsb info into Garmin devices without another Garmin device supplying the data.   

[Pinecone]

Just to throw out another thought.

2x G-5s.  I like the G-5 display.  My brain does not like curved tape instruments.

And then to a GTN-650.  Maybe think about a used  650 versus a new Xi.  But LOTS of capability in the box, and the basis for a higher end panel down the road.

[McMooney]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Just to throw out another thought.

2x G-5s.  I like the G-5 display.  My brain does not like curved tape instruments.

And then to a GTN-650.  Maybe think about a used  650 versus a new Xi.  But LOTS of capability in the box, and the basis for a higher end panel down the road.

2x gi-275's are basically a complete panel, they can replace all flight instruments, g5's cannot

 

[hubcap]

I would do:

(1) - GTN 650 Xi

(2) - G5

This set-up will allow you to do anything reasonable you need to do when flying IFR. Maybe not an NDB approach, but pretty much anything else.

When financially able, I would add a GFC500 Autopilot.

 

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, McMooney said:

2x gi-275's are basically a complete panel, they can replace all flight instruments, g5's cannot

 

I have absolutely no desire to lose the redundancy and readability of my old airspeed indicator and altimeter.  That fact on its own supports my desire to have G5s.  Lower price, better battery life and greater screen size make them even better to me.

I saw a guy who installed 2x GI-275s and nothing else.  It looked ridiculous.