How to get back in shape the POH/AFM

[redbaron1982]

So, as I continue putting everything in order for my "new" M20J, it's now the time for the POH (which includes WB, Equipment List and supplements).

The previous owner seems that was not very "diligent" with this, so I have a few questions:

• Is relevant to keep all the WB history or just the last one is enough? My knowledge tells me that just the last one, but I'm asking because this POH has WB dating to 1986.
• My last WB is missing, as it does not include the installation of the GI275 EIS. What's the best way of getting the aircraft in a legal state? Take it to some place where they can weight it and start fresh?
• How do you guys recommend to get the Equipment List up to date? I was thinking of "replaying" history, starting with the initial EL, and from there walk through every form 337 and adding/removing to get my latest version. Finally cross checking with the things I can visually see are installed in the airplane.
• How reliable is Aero Space reports to get all the Forms 337? I seriously doubt that I have all the forms. When I purchased the airplane I run a report from Aero Space and I have a list of Form 337. Can I take those as the source of truth?
• I'm quite sure I'm missing some entries in the POH of supplemental data. For instance, there is no entry for the GI 257 EIS. Having the Forms 337s and all the list of STC, is there a way to download the pages that I should add to the POH?
• How I know if I have the latest version of the POH? Mine has only one revision applied.
• On a more cosmetic side, is is possible to get a new binder? The one I have is not in a great shape, and is also a bit small.

Sorry so many questions, but I think is better to have one boring post rather than a lost of individual ones.

Thanks a lot!

I have to say that MS is helping me a lot with getting my M20J to a decent state again.

[EricJ]

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

So, as I continue putting everything in order for my "new" M20J, it's now the time for the POH (which includes WB, Equipment List and supplements).

The previous owner seems that was not very "diligent" with this, so I have a few questions:

• Is relevant to keep all the WB history or just the last one is enough? My knowledge tells me that just the last one, but I'm asking because this POH has WB dating to 1986.

You really only need the last one.    If there are questions as to the accuracy of the last one, having some of the recent history may be useful.   If you intend to have multiple configurations, e.g., with and without the back seat installed, then you need a W&B for each case or at least for the case covering the current configuration.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• My last WB is missing, as it does not include the installation of the GI275 EIS. What's the best way of getting the aircraft in a legal state? Take it to some place where they can weight it and start fresh?

If you have a W&B sheet from before that modification and know what was deleted and installed, a new W&B can be computed from the last known "good" one.    If that isn't possible, you can always weigh the airplane and start anew.   Many people don't like to do this because all of the weight from accumulated dirt, grease, repairs, unremoved wiring, etc., etc., suddenly shows up.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• How do you guys recommend to get the Equipment List up to date? I was thinking of "replaying" history, starting with the initial EL, and from there walk through every form 337 and adding/removing to get my latest version. Finally cross checking with the things I can visually see are installed in the airplane.

I did this a while back and started with the equipment list in the POH, which had the original list from the factory delivery, and just deleting stuff that was no longer there and adding stuff that had replaced the removed equipment or known additions.   It was a lot easier than I had expected it to be.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• How reliable is Aero Space reports to get all the Forms 337? I seriously doubt that I have all the forms. When I purchased the airplane I run a report from Aero Space and I have a list of Form 337. Can I take those as the source of truth?

I don't know anything about Aero Space reports, but you can get the officially recorded documents directly from the FAA.   The old process was to send in $10 and they'd send you a CD with everything on it, but now you can create an account on a new site and download the documents directly.    Basically if it's not in the files they have, it doesn't exist.

Go to https://cares.faa.gov/home  and create an account (which was a little tricky for me for some reason).   Once the account is created you'll be able to directly research all kinds of documents, including all of the files (337s, etc.), for any airplane.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• I'm quite sure I'm missing some entries in the POH of supplemental data. For instance, there is no entry for the GI 257 EIS. Having the Forms 337s and all the list of STC, is there a way to download the pages that I should add to the POH?

Usually manufacturers allow direct access of that sort of documentation, e.g., you can just look up AFM supplements for any installed equipment and download it.    You can then print it out and add it to the POH.   A more modern method is to keep all of the related documents, POH, AFM supplements, etc., etc., as electronic files in your EFB, on your phone, or at least on a thumb drive that remains in the airplane or readily accessible when demanded during a ramp check or annual or whatever.   Given the large AFM supplements that come with a lof of equipment these days, printing them all out to add to the physical POH gets pretty ridiculous.   The bottom line, though, is that you do need to have all of the relevant supplements in the aircraft, but they can be electronic.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• How I know if I have the latest version of the POH? Mine has only one revision applied.

You only need the version delivered with the airplane, i.e., specific to your serial number.    There is a document, I think a spreadsheet or something, floating around that shows every POH version related to all the models and serial numbers.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• On a more cosmetic side, is is possible to get a new binder? The one I have is not in a great shape, and is also a bit small.

I replaced mine with one from Staples.

33 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Sorry so many questions, but I think is better to have one boring post rather than a lost of individual ones.

Thanks a lot!

I have to say that MS is helping me a lot with getting my M20J to a decent state again.

It's good that you're trying to do things as correctly as possible, and this place is a good resource to get info regarding that.

[redbaron1982]

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, @EricJ!

I didn't know about  https://cares.faa.gov/home! It's a very good resource, and seems very well organized! I wish AD search site would be as clean as this one, lol! Aero Space gives you a similar report, but you have to pay.

Two follow up questions,

• Do I need to keep anything from the original binder if I change it for a generic one? I mean, it has some "placards" like the type of fuel that the aircraft can use.
• Updating the WB with the last modification performed (removing an old engine monitor and adding a GI 275) has to be done by an AP right? Is not something I can sign as an owner/ppl?

[EricJ]

29 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, @EricJ!

I didn't know about  https://cares.faa.gov/home! It's a very good resource, and seems very well organized! I wish AD search site would be as clean as this one, lol! Aero Space gives you a similar report, but you have to pay.

Two follow up questions,

• Do I need to keep anything from the original binder if I change it for a generic one? I mean, it has some "placards" like the type of fuel that the aircraft can use.

Do you mean the POH or something else?    You should have the POH that was delivered with your airplane and is marked with the specific aircraft serial number.   It should have the original equipment list, FAA approval signatures, etc.   That said, a scanned electronic copy of it can be in the airplane instead of the original.

29 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

• Updating the WB with the last modification performed (removing an old engine monitor and adding a GI 275) has to be done by an AP right? Is not something I can sign as an owner/ppl?

Yes, that needs to be signed off by an A&P.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I recently created an electronic POH primarily using foreflight.  I scanned in the original POH and then downloaded the manual for every new piece of equipment in my panel.  If I had a hard copy my POH would be 4 inches thick.   I still keep the original POH in the plane as well.   I think this is the way to go. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

How I know if I have the latest version of the POH? Mine has only one revision applied.

Go to Mooney.com

go to their support/technical page.

Look up the correct POH # for your aircraft model/serial # to verify it matches what you have. 

[PT20J]

Good for you to get the POH/AFM in order. While only the current W&B is required, most keep all the old ones (marked superseded with the date). This allows going back and rechecking for math errors (which are not uncommon). However, if you reweigh the aircraft, there is no value in the old W&B calculations.

It's not a bad idea to update the equipment list to agree with what is currently installed, but I would not try to recreate all the additions and deletions over time. Also, a lot of equipment comes with an Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) that is legally required to be added to the POH/AFM and you should collect any of those that are missing.

When you get this done, if there is not a current AD and service document history, it would be good to comb through the logbooks and create one. This way you and your maintainer can easily verify compliance with ADs and service bulletins/instructions.

There also should be an airplane file where you keep other documents such as invoices and wiring diagrams and 337s and the like. 

Skip

[laytonl]

For my Citabria, I am currently building a new weight and balance list in Excel, using all the additions and subtractions over the years.  I’ve found numerous errors in the w&b revisions.  I plan to have my mechanic sign off on the new list once finished.  I will do the same with my Mooney soon too.  
 

Lee

[redbaron1982]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Do you mean the POH or something else?    You should have the POH that was delivered with your airplane and is marked with the specific aircraft serial number.

I'm talking just about the binder. So if I take off all the sheets from the original binder and put it in a new binder, is it a legal POH?

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement (AFMS) that is legally required to be added to the POH/AFM and you should collect any of those that are missing.

Where can I get those? I understand that it's not the manual of the equipment but something specific for the AFM. For instance I do have the supplement for the Garmin 430 and it's a much more reduced version than the actual 430 manual, but it's organize like a AFM: with normal and emergency procedures, limitations, etc. 

 

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

When you get this done, if there is not a current AD and service document history, it would be good to comb through the logbooks and create one. This way you and your maintainer can easily verify compliance with ADs and service bulletins/instructions.

There also should be an airplane file where you keep other documents such as invoices and wiring diagrams and 337s and the like. 

Following @kortopates advice, I got the adLog system. It's really well organized and helped me get the ADs under control. 

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm talking just about the binder. So if I take off all the sheets from the original binder and put it in a new binder, is it a legal POH?

Yes, any binder is fine.   I got a replacement at Staples.

3 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Where can I get those? I understand that it's not the manual of the equipment but something specific for the AFM. For instance I do have the supplement for the Garmin 430 and it's a much more reduced version than the actual 430 manual, but it's organize like a AFM: with normal and emergency procedures, limitations, etc. 

The actual AFMS, i.e., the part that is required to be in the airplane, is usually a separate document specifically identified as the AFMS by the manufacturer.  The first page or title page should identify it as the AFMS or something similarly named.  

[redbaron1982]

10 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The actual AFMS, i.e., the part that is required to be in the airplane, is usually a separate document specifically identified as the AFMS by the manufacturer.  The first page or title page should identify it as the AFMS or something similarly named.  

Cool, looking specifically for AFMS I could find for instance the supplement for the GI 275. 

Seems I have some homework to do now!

Thanks a lot for the help!

[kortopates]

Cool, looking specifically for AFMS I could find for instance the supplement for the GI 275. 
Seems I have some homework to do now!
Thanks a lot for the help!

Garmin’s AFMS are all on Garmin’s website. Find the products, such as Gi-275 and then see the associated documentation.

If you want your POH to look as nice as a new Mooney, order a new leather day-timer binder with zipper closure on Amazon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PT20J]

55 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Where can I get those? I understand that it's not the manual of the equipment but something specific for the AFM. For instance I do have the supplement for the Garmin 430 and it's a much more reduced version than the actual 430 manual, but it's organize like a AFM: with normal and emergency procedures, limitations, etc. 

They are usually available for download from the manufacturer's website. They should have been provided by the installer of the equipment. A lot of the Garmin equipment has installation options so you should review the AFMS and check the boxes for the options you have installed. The most important part is the Limitations section which is the only part of the POH/AFM or AFMS that is approved by the FAA. The limitations are important because if you don't abide by them, you are technically in violation of FAR 91.9.

[donkaye]

Example of how I manage the supplements in my airplane.  This PDF is on my iPad and is updated as necessary.  Using Adobe Acrobat for each item, bookmarks are automatically added to the combined PDF for easy access to an individual item.   If I had to print it out and change it for every update, I'd have to change the printer ink a number of times and have pounds of paper to carry around, as the whole package is 481 pages. The actual hard copy POH is manageable with the original supplements that were not included in the panel update.  In separate files, I have all of the latest Pilot Guides on the iPad for easy reference of all equipment in the plane.

In a recent MFT with the FAA to renew my 2nd Class Medical due to the left eye not quite making the 20/20 requirement, the examiner reviewed ALL aircraft documentation and logs, including the below, and was quite happy with it.

N9148W Airplane Flight Manual Supplements for Avionics Upgrade 4:5:2023.pdf

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

You really only need the last one.    If there are questions as to the accuracy of the last one, having some of the recent history may be useful.   If you intend to have multiple configurations, e.g., with and without the back seat installed, then you need a W&B for each case or at least for the case covering the current configuration.

If you have a W&B sheet from before that modification and know what was deleted and installed, a new W&B can be computed from the last known "good" one.    If that isn't possible, you can always weigh the airplane and start anew.   Many people don't like to do this because all of the weight from accumulated dirt, grease, repairs, unremoved wiring, etc., etc., suddenly shows up.

I did this a while back and started with the equipment list in the POH, which had the original list from the factory delivery, and just deleting stuff that was no longer there and adding stuff that had replaced the removed equipment or known additions.   It was a lot easier than I had expected it to be.

 

 

 

If your W&B consists of several modifications over time, each one built up from the prior with "added" and "removed" equipment then you need all of them.  If you only keep the last one, you have no support for the basis of the starting point in the calculation of the revised W&B.

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, @EricJ!

I didn't know about  https://cares.faa.gov/home! It's a very good resource, and seems very well organized! I wish AD search site would be as clean as this one, lol! Aero Space gives you a similar report, but you have to pay.

It became available several months ago. I suspect the registration and airworthiness document part of cares is just public expansion of what the title companies have had access to for a while. Perhaps even what the FAA examiners themselves are using. 

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Aero Space gives you a similar report, but you have to pay.

It's not similar, it's exactly the same documents.  Aero Space just gets it from the FAA (they are in Oklahoma City), and sends it to you.  Used to be faster to get it from Aero Space but, with the new system discussed by @EricJ above, apparently you can do it yourself.  Either way, the trove of documents are identical.

[skykrawler]

I don't think there is a requirement to maintain an equipment list (with station and weight) for our airplanes.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

I don't think there is a requirement to maintain an equipment list (with station and weight) for our airplanes.

I don't know of a regulation to point to, but the W&B documention is supposed to be more-or-less integral with the equipment list.   In other words, updating the W&B is supposed to include updating the Equipment list if it affected.   The Weight and Balance Handbook, FAA-H-8083-1B, describes this throughout:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/FAA-H-8083-1.pdf

This suggests that the Equipment List is supposed to be maintained, and sometimes it is "maintained" only by notes on updated W&B balance sheets (e.g., Deleted Gizmo X, Installed Gizmo Y).   When that's the case then those historic W&B sheets do need to be maintained if they're the continuation of the Equipment List.    Maintaining the Equipment List to be current means only the latest W&B sheet that reflects the state of the aircraft is necessary.

So that's kind of a good point regarding whether to keep all of the W&B sheets or not.