Look up damage history?

[Mcstealth]

How do you look up damage history on a prospective purchase?

N9734M 

'67 F-model. 

[EricJ]

10 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

How do you look up damage history on a prospective purchase?

N9734M 

'67 F-model. 

Logbooks, careful inspection of the airframe.

And logbook records can be deleted after a year, so they're never 100% reliable.

[JimB]

Logbook research and get the records from the FAA. They keep copies of the 337s (should show any major repairs) and registration info. This can be ordered thru AOPA or other online places. Or send me a PM

[DCarlton]

12 minutes ago, EricJ said:

And logbook records can be deleted after a year, so they're never 100% reliable.

Never knew this until I read it on MS a few times.  Interesting that missing log books still detract so heavily from value.  I don't have log books, I have log books and file boxes.  I've kept everything; all the STC drawings and install manuals, plus records and source information for any part I've ever purchased.  Would like to downsize but I'm really hesitate to throw anything out.  Can't imagine scanning log books to sell; it would be a big job... 

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, JimB said:

Logbook research and get the records from the FAA. They keep copies of the 337s (should show any major repairs) and registration info. This can be ordered thru AOPA or other online places. Or send me a PM

You can now find them yourself. It's a bit of a rigamarole to sign up but the access is there. There was just an email about it this past week but I've been on there for at least two months.

https://cares.faa.gov/home 

But logbook research is a big key

11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

And logbook records can be deleted after a year, so they're never 100% reliable.

Not all of them.  And I would be extremely suspicious of an aircraft logbook in which all entries which are not currently applicable have been deleted. 

That said, even a "complete" logbook might be unreliable. 

[larryb]

I scanned all of my logbooks when I bought the plane and store them in Dropbox. Every year after annual I scan the pages since the last annual. No way am I going to take the risk of losing that data. It really wasn't a huge job to do the scanning, probably under 2 hours.

[midlifeflyer]

5 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Never knew this until I read it on MS a few times.

It's not quite that simple. You can read the regulation. It's 91.417. 

[JimB]

3 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

You can now find them yourself. It's a bit of a rigamarole to sign up but the access is there. There was just an email about it this past week but I've been on there for at least two months.

https://cares.faa.gov/home 

 

I don't believe the historical airworthiness records are available here. 

[midlifeflyer]

41 minutes ago, JimB said:

I don't believe the historical airworthiness records are available here. 

Belief is a funny thing...

[rbp]

regarding "converted airworthyness" -- when my (former) plane was used for RVSM certification, the equipment manufacturer converted the airworthnisss to experimental for the duration of the test flights. 

[Tim-37419]

Two sites for your bookmarks:

 

Aircraft Query - Aviation Database - AviationDB

Kathryn's Report (kathrynsreport.com)

 

Tim

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That said, even a "complete" logbook might be unreliable. 

^^^THIS^^^

I would add that examining the airplane is the most reliable.  That said, I didn't have much luck getting someone to find and document all the warts.  If a detailed examination doesn't reveal anything noteworthy, it probably doesn't matter whether it's in the logs or not. 

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

^^^THIS^^^

I would add that examining the airplane is the most reliable.  That said, I didn't have much luck getting someone to find and document all the warts.  If a detailed examination doesn't reveal anything noteworthy, it probably doesn't matter whether it's in the logs or not. 

+1, an inspection is the real way to determine whether there are any issues.    Logbook records may never have been made, or have been deleted/discarded, etc.    Whether something rises to the level of requiring a 337 is largely up to the maintainer, so you can't count on that, either.

[M20F]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

+1, an inspection is the real way to determine whether there are any issues.    Logbook records may never have been made, or have been deleted/discarded, etc.    Whether something rises to the level of requiring a 337 is largely up to the maintainer, so you can't count on that, either.

+3 the logbooks will often tell you really useful stuff.  The problem is what they don’t tell you and the only way to determine that is through inspection. 

[Schllc]

11 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

How do you look up damage history on a prospective purchase?

N9734M 

'67 F-model. 

http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm#SUBMIT

[DCarlton]

11 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Seriously?  When selling a $100k+ asset you can’t imagine spending an hour scanning pages or going to Kinko/FedEx and paying them to do it for you while you wait?  It’s just flipping pages ….

My plane is probably twice as old as yours with twice the documentation.  I could scan the bulging log books but it wouldn’t take an hour and it wouldn’t include the file box full of supporting STC documentation, repair docs, and maintenance and parts receipts.  I’m sure a mechanic could show me the minimum essential list of docs to scan to check the box.  Scanning the more recent logs wouldn’t be a big deal.  If someone wants to buy my plane I’d rather walk them through all the details in person or hand it all over to a broker and let them handle it.  I may donate to a university to avoid the hassle.  

[Pinecone]

When I was shopping planes, the first thing was to look at the logbooks for any red flags.  I skipped a couple of planes based on this.

Then a good pre-buy inspection to catch things not in the logs.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Schllc said:

http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm#SUBMIT

It can help if  the incident or accident was reported  and investigated. That misses a lot of common damage including ground damage (storms,, being hit by the FBO truck) and many gear-ups.

This is not a one stop shop thing. Maintenance logs, airworthiness records from the FAA, accident databases, and physical inspection (all by someone who understands what they are looking at) all can paint part of the picture.

[A64Pilot]

Yeah logbooks aren’t what they used to be, with one well publicized IA touting don’t let anyone put anything in your logbook that’s negative, insist on it being put on a sticky, then throw the sticky away after a year, they don’t mean much anymore.

I don’t think that was the intent of the regulation, but what I think isn’t relevant.

Ref the keeping everything, that’s fine but it gets ridiculous at some point, nobody needs or wants all the paperwork that came with the battery that was installed 20 years ago or the operating manual for the Loran that was removed, at some point its OK to get rid of stuff, and I think you should. When the day to sell comes, neat logically kept records I believe says something good.

‘Don’t be the guy like one that owned my C-140 at one time and staple everything in the logbook, if you want to keep all that stuff, have another file for it

[Echo]

Hoarding is real. I think AH64 nailed it.  Absolutely reasonable to save receipts for a reasonable period of time.  Annual receipts with detailed parts list I save indefnitely.  How much a headset cost in 2003 not so much.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Echo
auto correct issue

[DCarlton]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

No - my plane is 43 years old and yours is 56.  Definitely not twice. Granted some more documentation but not a huge amount

I am referring to the standard Maintenance Log Books that have been used for eons - the older ones 7.5 x 4 inches and the newer ones 7.5 x 5.5 inches. Each page should just be an entry (or entries) by the A&P or IA with a summary of what was done, date, plane or engine hours and signature - and not stuffed with other documents.  The old ones are hand written and the new ones are a stick on printout.  That is what a typical buyer wants to look at to start with.  And yes I also have a file cabinet drawer full of supporting documents, STC's, invoices, etc.  If a buyer needs to drill down into more detail then that would selectively come next. 

Like said above, don't be the guy that staples everything in the logbook.  That's what my older log books look like.  Sure I could clean them up; you win on that one.  I started new logs a few years ago.  My mechanic told me what to keep and what not to keep in the books; the new ones are very clean and would be easy to scan.  Side step...  how do you get comfortable with a plane that's had several gear related incidents for example without seeing the details of the previous damage and perhaps even photos.  There's a really well equipped one for sale now but it's had three gear related incidents; how do you get comfortable and how do you make others comfortable when it's time to sell.  Sure you can read that a plane went off a runway and suffered damage and you can read where a skin or rib was replaced but is that enough with a visual pre-buy inspection?  How will you ever know what loads may have been imposed on the airframe or how bad the damage really was without photos for example or some of the details that are hopefully buried in a file box.... or the details that have been conveniently discarded because you're not required to keep them.  

[A64Pilot]

In your example of three gear incidents, there is nothing short of an in-depth inspection that can assure you, and in my opinion your going to need paperwork that tells you where to look, it’s real easy to bend a few ribs sorta back into shape and put on a new skin and without knowledge that skin was replaced you don’t know to find a way to look under it. So it’s going to take a trip and money and time spent to inspect.

I’ve passed on more than one airplane that you could tell skins had been replaced by poorly shot rivets and or a few oversized ones or blind rivets where there shouldn’t be that didn’t have logbook entries showing what and why.

So some may think they are being smart by throwing away those stickies, but many people can tell parts have been replaced and without entries saying why, we can only assume the worst and pass on the airplane, but maybe it was as simple as a maintenance stand had accidentally been pushed into the airplane and a corner holed the skin.

I used to advise people don’t worry too much about what’s in the logbook, almost certainly those repairs were correctly done, instead worry about what’s NOT in the logbook. I think that’s even more important now apparently.

[wombat]

@A64Pilot I'm right there with you on the questions regarding what to keep and what to toss...  On my new to me plane, I've got manuals for equipment that was removed to be replaced by something that was then later removed to make way for the current generation of equipment, which happened 11 years ago.

 

What I've decided is that I'll keep all that old junk (aforementioned avionics manuals, engine logbooks for engines that were replaced, etc) but keep it separated from the maintenance records.    It doesn't hurt me to have a giant box of old stuff, and maybe someone who ends up buying the plane will want this old paperwork.  But I'm not even bothering to put it in chronological order.  It's just all jumbled together.

 

@Mcstealth There is also the question of what makes something 'damage history'.... If as a completely random example, someone were to run my plane off the side of a runway and a bush tears one of the gear doors off, does that count?   What about if the damage is exclusively on the gear door itself and they replace it?   There is no damaged part on the plane.   What about if the plane regularly lands on grass and after 5 years of this the A&P says "The gear door attach holes are worn out, we need to get a new gear door."... Is that damage history? 

Personally I'd call any single event that requires a 337 to repair 'damage history', but that's just me personally.

[EricJ]

14 minutes ago, wombat said:

Personally I'd call any single event that requires a 337 to repair 'damage history', but that's just me personally.

Whether or not a 337 is required is up to the maintainer, so that is a highly uneven standard.   An awful lot of stuff that gets repaired doesn't even get logged, let alone put on a 337.    This is just the reality of GA. 

Still, logbook inspection is a good place to start when considering a prospective airplane purchase, since conscientious owners and maintainers do often keep good records.   It's just not a certainty.   Inspection of the airframe is still the best bet, since even if there are good records, including a detailed 337, they may not reflect the quality or completeness of the actual work done.

[mooniac15u]

36 minutes ago, wombat said:

@A64Pilot I'm right there with you on the questions regarding what to keep and what to toss...  On my new to me plane, I've got manuals for equipment that was removed to be replaced by something that was then later removed to make way for the current generation of equipment, which happened 11 years ago.

 

What I've decided is that I'll keep all that old junk (aforementioned avionics manuals, engine logbooks for engines that were replaced, etc) but keep it separated from the maintenance records.    It doesn't hurt me to have a giant box of old stuff, and maybe someone who ends up buying the plane will want this old paperwork.  But I'm not even bothering to put it in chronological order.  It's just all jumbled together.

 

@Mcstealth There is also the question of what makes something 'damage history'.... If as a completely random example, someone were to run my plane off the side of a runway and a bush tears one of the gear doors off, does that count?   What about if the damage is exclusively on the gear door itself and they replace it?   There is no damaged part on the plane.   What about if the plane regularly lands on grass and after 5 years of this the A&P says "The gear door attach holes are worn out, we need to get a new gear door."... Is that damage history? 

Personally I'd call any single event that requires a 337 to repair 'damage history', but that's just me personally.

There's an M20C for sale here on Mooneyspace with an ad that says "No damage history" yet Aviationdb.com says there was a gear collapse.  Is that damage history?