M20E panel questions

[Pictreed]

I want to start thinking about some upgrades.  Right now I have original steam gauges, Avidyne 440, JPI 700, Garmin nav/com radio.

I fly some IFR but no autopilot.  I'd like to start by getting the G5 AI and HSI with magnetometer. 

Will any of this allow me to get rid of the altitude encoder?  I assume I'll be able to ditch my CDI and vacuum (for the panel, I still need it for the step).

 

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, Pictreed said:

I'd like to start by getting the G5 AI and HSI with magnetometer. 

Will any of this allow me to get rid of the altitude encoder?

Depends on your other equipment.

A Garmin G5 can output "air data", including the pressure altitude a transponder needs to transmit Mode C altitude.  However, it can only do so on its CANBUS output, and no transponder I'm aware of has a CANBUS input.

If your G5 installation includes a GAD29 - which it probably will to allow your Avidyne 440 to display navigation CDI needles on the G5s - then the GAD29 can also be employed to convert CANBUS data to ARINC-429 data.  Many transponders have one or more ARINC-429 inputs, and can be configured to receive pressure altitude over ARINC-429.  But your installer must make that connection, and since it's not typical, many don't.

In summary, (1) determine if your transponder can receive pressure altitude information via ARINC-429 inputs; (2) make sure your dual G5 installation includes a GAD29; and (3) tell your installer to wire one of the GAD29 ARINC-429 outputs to an ARINC-429 input of your transponder.  If all that is done, then yes, you can get rid of your existing altitude encoder.

[Fly Boomer]

19 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Depends on your other equipment.

A Garmin G5 can output "air data", including the pressure altitude a transponder needs to transmit Mode C altitude.  However, it can only do so on its CANBUS output, and no transponder I'm aware of has a CANBUS input.

If your G5 installation includes a GAD29 - which it probably will to allow your Avidyne 440 to display navigation CDI needles on the G5s - then the GAD29 can also be employed to convert CANBUS data to ARINC-429 data.  Many transponders have one or more ARINC-429 inputs, and can be configured to receive pressure altitude over ARINC-429.  But your installer must make that connection, and since it's not typical, many don't.

In summary, (1) determine if your transponder can receive pressure altitude information via ARINC-429 inputs; (2) make sure your dual G5 installation includes a GAD29; and (3) tell your installer to wire one of the GAD29 ARINC-429 outputs to an ARINC-429 input of your transponder.  If all that is done, then yes, you can get rid of your existing altitude encoder.

Wow!  Super in-depth answer.

[Skates97]

22 hours ago, Pictreed said:

I want to start thinking about some upgrades.  Right now I have original steam gauges, Avidyne 440, JPI 700, Garmin nav/com radio.

I fly some IFR but no autopilot.  I'd like to start by getting the G5 AI and HSI with magnetometer. 

Will any of this allow me to get rid of the altitude encoder?  I assume I'll be able to ditch my CDI and vacuum (for the panel, I still need it for the step).

 

 

Get the electric step conversion from @takair, it's an easy install and worth it to ditch the vacuum system.

http://flightenhancements.com/auto-step.html

[DCarlton]

33 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Get the electric step conversion from @takair, it's an easy install and worth it to ditch the vacuum system.

http://flightenhancements.com/auto-step.html

Any idea if you have to take the baggage compartment interior out to mount the hardware?  Do you need access to the other side of the bulkhead?  

[TheAv8r]

Fellow M20E owner here - agree with the step to add the Garmin G5s. Well worth it for IFR flying and they work seamlessly with my 430W. I have an STEC 30 AP, I wouldn't necessarily recommend getting it a as a new AP because STEC has said once they're out of parts for repairs, it's done, but it fits my needs very well for having an AP in the cruise stage of flight. I did a panel refurb with a JPI 930, CIES senders, and a flat one-piece panel with all new switches, CBs and wiring, and all new engine controls. From the picture, it looks like your engine controls (Throttle/Prop/Mixture) might be original, would highly recommend considering replacing those with brand-new McFarlane ones as part of the panel work, 50yrs is a long time for those critical flight controls. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

During my recent avionics upgrade my altitude encoder was removed because apparently if you have a GI 275 and a digital transponder the GI 275 can give the transponder the altitude information.  So I don’t know the exact answer to your question but it may be possible depending on the combination of avionics you install.  

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Any idea if you have to take the baggage compartment interior out to mount the hardware?  Do you need access to the other side of the bulkhead?  

No, you don't need to remove the baggage compartment interior. You go in through the panel to the avionics bay on the left side of the plane. You don't even have to rewove the interior as you can feed the wire from the back to the front through the existing vacuum line that is no longer needed. 

AS-IOM-001_Rev 3 - Electric Step Conversion.pdf

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Get the electric step conversion from @takair, it's an easy install and worth it to ditch the vacuum system.

Politely contrary opinion: keep the vacuum step if it's working.

The useful load you gain by removing the vacuum pump, manifold, and servo boot is a few pounds at best, and leaving it installed doesn't hurt anything.  Your vacuum pump will eventually fail, but likely not for a long time, and you no longer have to worry about when/if it fails: it's not a critical piece of equipment, won't take anything else with it, and you can easily procure a cheap used/overhauled pump when needed - perhaps even for free, from someone who is removing theirs.

Cost of the electric step upgrade is $435 for the kit, plus shipping, plus a couple of hours' labor minimum for the installation work.  Weight delta is less than variation in the clothes you wear in summer vs. winter, and the only other benefit is just being able to say you ditched the vacuum system, which I guess sounds cool.  I do think the design is nice, and it's a good option for an actual malfunctioning system, but that's apparently not the case for the OP.

To be clear, I'm all for replacing vacuum gyros with solid state, that's a separate subject.  But I don't get the recommendations to spend money to remove remaining tidbits of a vacuum system that powers working steps, wing levelers, etc.  I think that money is better spent on actual flying, but happy to listen to counter-arguments.

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Politely contrary opinion: keep the vacuum step if it's working.

The useful load you gain by removing the vacuum pump, manifold, and servo boot is a few pounds at best, and leaving it installed doesn't hurt anything.  Your vacuum pump will eventually fail, but likely not for a long time, and you no longer have to worry about when/if it fails: it's not a critical piece of equipment, won't take anything else with it, and you can easily procure a cheap used/overhauled pump when needed - perhaps even for free, from someone who is removing theirs.

Cost of the electric step upgrade is $435 for the kit, plus shipping, plus a couple of hours' labor minimum for the installation work.  Weight delta is less than variation in the clothes you wear in summer vs. winter, and the only other benefit is just being able to say you ditched the vacuum system, which I guess sounds cool.  I do think the design is nice, and it's a good option for an actual malfunctioning system, but that's apparently not the case for the OP.

To be clear, I'm all for replacing vacuum gyros with solid state, that's a separate subject.  But I don't get the recommendations to spend money to remove remaining tidbits of a vacuum system that powers working steps, wing levelers, etc.  I think that money is better spent on actual flying, but happy to listen to counter-arguments.

I don't disagree, I was just pointing out to the OP that there is another option for the step.

I didn't remove it for the weight difference. I have gained more useful load by shedding my own extra weight than by anything removed or updated in the plane. It looks like currently $295 for an overhauled pump from Aircraft Spruce, which will fail again in another 500 hours or so.

I was putting in G5's and the M20D's don't have a wing leveler so there was no reason to keep it, other than for the step. I did all the labor under supervision so no cost there. I was kicked out of the CB club a long time ago, the $435 for the conversion is a drop in the proverbial bucket. 

One unnamed benefit, if you do your own oil changes, not having a vacuum pump makes it so much easier. 

[Vance Harral]

29 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I have gained more useful load by shedding my own extra weight than by anything removed or updated in the plane.

  Me too.

29 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

One unnamed benefit, if you do your own oil changes, not having a vacuum pump makes it so much easier.

This is an interesting point that I had not considered, thanks.

[DCarlton]

11 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Politely contrary opinion: keep the vacuum step if it's working.

The useful load you gain by removing the vacuum pump, manifold, and servo boot is a few pounds at best, and leaving it installed doesn't hurt anything.  Your vacuum pump will eventually fail, but likely not for a long time, and you no longer have to worry about when/if it fails: it's not a critical piece of equipment, won't take anything else with it, and you can easily procure a cheap used/overhauled pump when needed - perhaps even for free, from someone who is removing theirs.

Cost of the electric step upgrade is $435 for the kit, plus shipping, plus a couple of hours' labor minimum for the installation work.  Weight delta is less than variation in the clothes you wear in summer vs. winter, and the only other benefit is just being able to say you ditched the vacuum system, which I guess sounds cool.  I do think the design is nice, and it's a good option for an actual malfunctioning system, but that's apparently not the case for the OP.

To be clear, I'm all for replacing vacuum gyros with solid state, that's a separate subject.  But I don't get the recommendations to spend money to remove remaining tidbits of a vacuum system that powers working steps, wing levelers, etc.  I think that money is better spent on actual flying, but happy to listen to counter-arguments.

Right now, I have a vacuum pump / manifold that sucks on the TC, AI, DG, three wing leveler bladders, and the step.  My thought was to reduce the vacuum rats nest to just the TC, maybe the DG, and wing leveler bladders.  Basically clean up and dedicate the vacuum system as much as possible without dumping the wing leveler.  My pilots side panel needs refreshing.  I might go with an electric step even though it’s not necessary.   

[Pictreed]

On 5/10/2023 at 12:08 PM, TheAv8r said:

Fellow M20E owner here - agree with the step to add the Garmin G5s. Well worth it for IFR flying and they work seamlessly with my 430W. I have an STEC 30 AP, I wouldn't necessarily recommend getting it a as a new AP because STEC has said once they're out of parts for repairs, it's done, but it fits my needs very well for having an AP in the cruise stage of flight. I did a panel refurb with a JPI 930, CIES senders, and a flat one-piece panel with all new switches, CBs and wiring, and all new engine controls. From the picture, it looks like your engine controls (Throttle/Prop/Mixture) might be original, would highly recommend considering replacing those with brand-new McFarlane ones as part of the panel work, 50yrs is a long time for those critical flight controls. 

That looks like my end goal but it also looks to be about $80k with autopilot.  But at that point I wouldn’t have to keep piecing it together and get something that’s not compatible with what I have.  And I’ll have what I want.  
Do you have a template for that dash?

I’d love to do some of the work myself but not sure I could dedicate that kind of time and still coordinate with an IA checking in.  

[Pinecone]

$80K or so can get you a 10" G3X with EIS, G-5 backup, GTN-750Xi, GFC-500 with yaw damper, PS Engineering 450B audio panel, Ceis senders

I have a quote in front of me.

I already have a GTN-650Xi for #2 and the GTX-345.

[Pictreed]

$80K or so can get you a 10" G3X with EIS, G-5 backup, GTN-750Xi, GFC-500 with yaw damper, PS Engineering 450B audio panel, Ceis senders
I have a quote in front of me.
I already have a GTN-650Xi for #2 and the GTX-345.

I’ve been looking at my options. Looks like the G3X May be the cheapest route. Take out the GTN 750 and that setup sounds like it will work.
I need to find a shop. I think there’s one in McKinney or Denton that’s local for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jorge0272]

@TheAv8r, Who did the actual instrument panel?

[TheAv8r]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:16 PM, Jorge0272 said:

@TheAv8r, Who did the actual instrument panel?

BK Aircraft at KAXH - https://www.bkaircraftservices.com/