First Post and Several Questions

[PrairieFlyer]

Hello everyone in the Mooney community. Long time lurker, first time poster. I have learnt lots in the forum, but had a couple questions for me more specifically. 
 

I am a 450 HR recently IFR rated private pilot located in Saskatchewan Canada. 
 

Looking to make the jump from my Cherokee 180 into a Mooney J model in the next year or so. 

Mission varies from 40 mile trips upwards of 500 mile trips. Would love to tour in the US. Although rare, I do fill 4 seats several times per year, so useful load is important to me. 

1.  Opinions on landing on grass. I am located at a 2600ft “grass” strip. In the summer it dries out and is more of a dirt strip than grass. Other than making sure to watch airspeed does anyone have any real concern with off pavement landings in a Mooney? I’ve heard they are unforgiving with the rubber donut suspension and lower prop clearance. 
 

2. Does anyone have any experience exporting to Canada? Does anyone have a person or company they can recommend to ease the process? From what I understand STC’s can be different from the USA to Canada and can cause some issues. 
 

3. No Damage History Vs Damage History. 
There are both options right now on aircraft that I’m interested in.  If the damage has been properly taken care of is there much concern with purchasing an aircraft with damage history? Ex. gear up landing.  Should there be much of a discount on the aircraft vs one with NDH? 
 

4. IFR avionics suite. Coming from a Piper Autocontrol III, how important is a more advanced autopilot for safety? Would really like one that can be coupled to a VNAV approach. 
 

If anyone knows of a Canadian marked J model that is for sale in good condition I am interested. All the ones in good shape seem to be South! 
 

Thanks!

 

[1980Mooney]

57 minutes ago, PrairieFlyer said:

Hello everyone in the Mooney community. Long time lurker, first time poster. I have learnt lots in the forum, but had a couple questions for me more specifically. 
 

I am a 450 HR recently IFR rated private pilot located in Saskatchewan Canada. 
 

Looking to make the jump from my Cherokee 180 into a Mooney J model in the next year or so. 

Mission varies from 40 mile trips upwards of 500 mile trips. Would love to tour in the US. Although rare, I do fill 4 seats several times per year, so useful load is important to me. 

1.  Opinions on landing on grass. I am located at a 2600ft “grass” strip. In the summer it dries out and is more of a dirt strip than grass. Other than making sure to watch airspeed does anyone have any real concern with off pavement landings in a Mooney? I’ve heard they are unforgiving with the rubber donut suspension and lower prop clearance. 
 

2. Does anyone have any experience exporting to Canada? Does anyone have a person or company they can recommend to ease the process? From what I understand STC’s can be different from the USA to Canada and can cause some issues. 
 

3. No Damage History Vs Damage History. 
There are both options right now on aircraft that I’m interested in.  If the damage has been properly taken care of is there much concern with purchasing an aircraft with damage history? Ex. gear up landing.  Should there be much of a discount on the aircraft vs one with NDH? 
 

4. IFR avionics suite. Coming from a Piper Autocontrol III, how important is a more advanced autopilot for safety? Would really like one that can be coupled to a VNAV approach. 
 

If anyone knows of a Canadian marked J model that is for sale in good condition I am interested. All the ones in good shape seem to be South! 
 

Thanks!

 

You do know that Useful Load is not a Mooney strength.  My M20J came from the factory with 943 lbs UL.  Later J's had a GW increase of 160 lbs.  (from 2740 lb GW to 2900 lb GW) 

Regarding filling 4 seats - it depends on who is in those seats.  The average US male now weighs about 200 lb and the average female is about 170 lbs.  Canadians are probably more fit. If you have 4 adults you could easily be at 720 lbs.  Add 50 lbs of luggage and crap and you are at 770 lbs.  That leaves you 170 lbs. for fuel, some extra quarts of oil, whatever junk you have on the hatrack, flight bag, etc.  That means you can only put on about 27 gallons.  Assume that 7 gallons is reserve so that give you about 2 hours flight time.

#1 - I can't give you a fair answer - my J was converted to a "Missile" long ago which includes a much heavier IO-550 and full feathing prop - i.e. lots of weight on the nose gear and any bumps with those spongy donuts is usually a problem for me.  But it may not be an issue for regular J owners.

#2 - This has been a topic several times previously.  See comments from @M20Doc in first topic.  He owns the MSC (Mooney Service Center) in Ontario.   He is also the Diamond and Cirrus Authorized Service Center and is importing planes into Canada all the time.

Tri-City Aero Maintenance Inc Company Profile | Breslau, ON, Canada | Competitors, Financials & Contacts - Dun & Bradstreet (dnb.com)

 

 

 

 

#3 - As you may have seen, Mooney's land gear up with great frequency.  Mooney's survive gear up landings better than most single engine retractable.  They are generally easily reparable by knowledgeable shops. I know a Mooney owner who landed the same J gear up twice.  And he still owns and flies that plane.

If a Mooney has been repaired properly it should not be an issue.  If the incident were repaired a long time ago it becomes basically a non-issue.  Recent repairs may bring a bigger discount

#4 - You will appreciate the convenience and utility of an autopilot with GPSS steering coupled to your WAAS navigator that can do LPV approaches.

Ask @M20Doc about the Canadian Mooney market - he is the most knowable here on MS about Mooney's in Canada - and he is here frequently. 

[Pinecone]

There are some with better useful loads.   The sweet spot seems to be a 252 converted to Encore.  Mine is at 1119 UL right now.

So at 770 pounds in the cabin, I can still load 58 gallons of fuel.  So about 4.5 hours with reserve.

[JayMatt]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Regarding filling 4 seats - it depends on who is in those seats.  The average US male now weighs about 200 lb and the average female is about 170 lbs.  

dad gum....! I don't know too many pilots or females in that size range. Most pilots are small people. Probably because the fastest and cheapest way to more useable load is to lose weight. I carry 4 in my J all the time. Worst case I've let 5 gallons out each side

[MichMooney201]

1.  Mooney's and grass is no bueno because of the small prop clearance.  I would suggest you be a soft field landing expert and because Mooney's land fast, a short grass field is trouble.  To bleed off excess airspeed by keeping the nose off the ground almost ALWAYS results in going airborne again eating up more runway so if you could find one with speed brakes that would help probably.  To be honest, and I am in love with my J, grass runways and my J are a non starter.  Grass is the one thing a Mooney does not do well.  Usefull load is the other thing they don't do well but 900-1000 lbs is what you get.

2.  Great info already provided above.

3.  You see lots of gear up damaged Mooneys.  Replace the skid plates and your engine overhaul and away you go.  My J had a gear up landing back in 1980 and you would never know it except for the log book entry.  I would not worry about a Mooney with a gear up landing history if repairs are well documented.

4. I'm putting a GFC500 in my plane right now, however I have probably 200 hours in the last 2 years hand flying cross country trips.  Mooney's and the pushrod controls are like driving a porsche compared to a 1982 Caddie Fleetwood.  The safety of an autopilot is undisputable but when you are cruising and trimmed in just right, hand flying Mooneys is just a joy. (My experience is comparing Warriors and 172/182's to a J)

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, PrairieFlyer said:

1.  Opinions on landing on grass. I am located at a 2600ft “grass” strip. In the summer it dries out and is more of a dirt strip than grass. Other than making sure to watch airspeed does anyone have any real concern with off pavement landings in a Mooney? I’ve heard they are unforgiving with the rubber donut suspension and lower prop clearance. 

Plenty of good answers above, but I will just reiterate that, in general, a Mooney is not a turf airplane.  People do it, but many have paid the price.  My M20K is firmly in the "not now, not ever" camp.

[wombat]

Re: Damage history....

It's a big price discount because many potential owners will not buy a plane with any damage history.  But as a buyer, since the price discount is already included in the price you pay, it's not really a problem.   When considering the time cost of money, it's actually a better deal.  If you could magically purchase aircraft at 1% of market price (99% discount!), but also had to sell them at 1% of market price (The same 99% discount), we'd all do that!   Financially there is nothing different between that and a 10% to 15% discount that 'damage history' gives.

 

But why do some buyers shun airplanes with damage history?   I suspect they think that the aircraft is less safe or will have further maintenance costs.  This suspicion is based on my conversations with other aircraft owners over the last 10+ years.    My personal opinion is the risk of an accident or incident, or further maintenance costs from a 'damage history' airplane are negligible.  Not zero, but small enough that on a statistical scale you won't be able to show any additional risk.  The much larger risk factors are corrosion and un-reported/un-repaired damage.  If an airplane had an incident and is repairable, that repair was done to FAA standards.    The same organization that made the standards the airplane was built to.  There are no additional limitations on that airplane and it is officially just as safe as it was before.

There are many events that can cause damage to the aircraft that don't get found or reported as damage.   A hard landing that doesn't cause any obvious damage or an in-flight turbulence event could both cause damage that is undetected by maintenance and could cause a later accident/incident or unexpected repair costs.    But after one of those you don't have a certified mechanic looking at the airplane for damage that might have been caused by the event.   But with a 'damage history' causing event, you *DO* have someone specifically looking for issues that could have been caused by the event.

On the other hand, some maintenance shops might be particularly picky about how previous shops have performed and logged repairs.  I took a C-branded 182 to a shop for annual and the shop would not sign off on it because they wanted to open up the wing to inspect a repair made 40 years previously.  They said they didn't think there was enough detail in the logbook entry to convince them that the repair had been made correctly.   I pointed to a logbook entry that said the repair had been made in accordance with the C-brand repair manual and FAA standards (I don't remember the exact wording) and that other A&P's (At least 10) had signed off on this in the 40 years since then.   I ended up taking the plane back with the annual inspection completed but not airworthy and with a discrepancy list.    One ferry permit later and at another shop, I had a logbook entry that said something like "Found entry in logbook documenting repair to left wing in accordance with manufacturer and FAA requirements."

 

Mike Bush has written about damage history a little; https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-12_damage-history.pdf

I wish he would do an analysis of accidents/incidents and maintenance costs associated with aircraft damage after the initial repair has been completed. He has enough data that his analysis could perhaps be considered authoritative and he has enough market attention this could significantly alter the 'damage history' aircraft market.

 

 

So says the guy who has a prebuy on a 'damage history' airplane that was supposed to start today.   

 

 

[PrairieFlyer]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I appreciate it. 

 I should have clarified on the useful load. Good useful load relatively speaking compared to other J models. Over 1000lbs is what I am looking for. Luckily I’m not on the heavy side, around 170lbs. My cherokee 180 has a useful load of 1050, and there are times when we use all of it. 
 

1. This was one of my largest drawbacks with the Mooney line. Some people don’t want to touch grass and I can understand why. I have a distant neighbor who flies a Mooney F model off a different grass strip regularly. When the snow finally melts up here we are planning to discuss and go for a ride. 

2. Thanks for the links of contacts. I’ll review and try reach out to several people when I get the chance. 
 

3. Glad to hear aircraft with damage history are of little issue if properly repaired. It doesn’t bother me, and thanks for reaffirming! 
 

4. I have heard that Mooneys fly great hand flown. In the Cherokee I often fly approaches by hand with the autopilot off, but as I fly in IFR conditions more often, the safety of a good autopilot is something I think will be on my shortlist of needs. 
 

 

Appreciate the info again, I probably won’t be able to respond to any messages until later this evening! 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have landed on grass a few times and taxied on grass at Oshkosh. Oshkosh did the most damage. The problem isn't the prop clearance, it is the landing gear doors. If you have a plane with the lower gear doors, I would remove them before operating on grass.

A lot of people just say no to grass. Not all grass is created equal. Some is like landing on a golf course green and some are like landing in a field of boulders and potholes. I have landed on pavement that was way worse then the best grass I've landed on.

[ttflyer]

For a short turf / grass strip I was going to suggest a Cherokee 180 or similar rather then a Mooney...   Then I see you already have one...  Love our Mooney.  But I fly off a 5,000 foot paved runway. 

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, PrairieFlyer said:

3. No Damage History Vs Damage History. 
There are both options right now on aircraft that I’m interested in.  If the damage has been properly taken care of is there much concern with purchasing an aircraft with damage history? Ex. gear up landing.  Should there be much of a discount on the aircraft vs one with NDH? 
...

4. IFR avionics suite. Coming from a Piper Autocontrol III, how important is a more advanced autopilot for safety? Would really like one that can be coupled to a VNAV approach. 

First, welcome, and I hope you find something suitable for your missions.

Regarding damage history, these airplanes are all old enough that it is nearly a given that they have damage history of some kind.   The current condition is really what's important, e.g., that any damage was repaired properly and is aging well.   FWIW, you may have no way of knowing the actual damage history since maintenance records aren't required to be kept after a year, so even if the logbooks are "complete", certain sections may have legally been lost or discarded for convenience.       So you can't know for certain with any airplane, but it doesn't matter because the current condition is what is important.

My airplane is IFR equipped and I'm instrument rated and my (original, ancient) autopilot has been broken for several years.   After many attempts to repair it I finally gave up, and there are no suitable replacements on the market that I'm interested in installing.   I won't hand-fly single-pilot IFR, but even a wing leveller makes a huge difference in reducing workload to be able to get by.   Advanced autopilots are nice, but not necessary imho, but that's really a personal preference for the individual.   Often a wing leveller or better does a great job.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PrairieFlyer said:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I appreciate it. 

 I should have clarified on the useful load. Good useful load relatively speaking compared to other J models. Over 1000lbs is what I am looking for. Luckily I’m not on the heavy side, around 170lbs. My cherokee 180 has a useful load of 1050, and there are times when we use all of it. 
 

1. This was one of my largest drawbacks with the Mooney line. Some people don’t want to touch grass and I can understand why. I have a distant neighbor who flies a Mooney F model off a different grass strip regularly. When the snow finally melts up here we are planning to discuss and go for a ride. 

2. Thanks for the links of contacts. I’ll review and try reach out to several people when I get the chance. 
 

3. Glad to hear aircraft with damage history are of little issue if properly repaired. It doesn’t bother me, and thanks for reaffirming! 
 

4. I have heard that Mooneys fly great hand flown. In the Cherokee I often fly approaches by hand with the autopilot off, but as I fly in IFR conditions more often, the safety of a good autopilot is something I think will be on my shortlist of needs. 
 

 

Appreciate the info again, I probably won’t be able to respond to any messages until later this evening! 

Sounds to me that you need to look into a Piper Comanche 250/260 series.  

[Niko182]

I'd go the debonair route.

[KSMooniac]

I concur with much said above.  Finding >1000 lb useful load in a J will be a bit tough.  You'll likely need an early model (like my '77) or a much later model with the 2900 gross weight, and in both cases, one with a somewhat modernized panel that loses a lot of the old, heavy radios.  Many of the F models will have >1000 lb useful load, so if you happen across one of those with everything you want, don't discount it.

Gear-up damage is usually a non-issue in a Mooney, assuming proper repairs and lots of time since the event.  Bigger concerns are corrosion, or big damage events that result in massive repairs in the structure.  Gear-up damage usually doesn't impact structural members, just the pocketbook.

I'm also in the camp of not taking my Mooney on to grass runways (and be careful taxiing at OSH!) unless they're known to be golf course smooth.  I would not base mine on a 2600' grass strip unless it were a putting green and was clear of obstacles at both ends.  As much as I love Mooneys, I would choose differently if that were my home base.  My IA mechanic friend keeps his G on a residential airpark with grass and he's OK with it, though.  Years ago I gave a ride to a guy that was living at the same airpark and he liked my J, but chose a Debonair to get the oleo landing gear and I think it was a good decision.  (He's since moved to a 185!)  

[mcarterak]

Can I ask specifically why you are considering a Mooney? We all know the reasons why we own them, but curious what about it checks your boxes? 

[Beard]

I think COPA has information on importing from the US. If you are not a member you should join. I have never imported from the US, but have heard that the process is not that difficult. I have heard of Canadians with a US reciprocal license having flown their newly purchased US plane to Canada themselves. I am not sure if this is the correct name for the license, but it is a US pilots license that is based on your Canadian one. It is free and easy to get. I use mine when I rent planes in the US.

I purchased my 84J in Toronto where I live in 2010 and realize how scarce these planes are in Canada.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I'd go the debonair route.

Magnesium flight controls, cracked centre section webs, 5 year wing bolts and same small nose wheel as a Mooney.  Not much of an improvement.

Something like this might suit for the OP.

https://www.hangar67.com/aircraft/1966-piper-comanche-pa24260b/27363

[carusoam]

10 hours ago, PrairieFlyer said:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I appreciate it. 

 I should have clarified on the useful load. Good useful load relatively speaking compared to other J models. Over 1000lbs is what I am looking for. Luckily I’m not on the heavy side, around 170lbs. My cherokee 180 has a useful load of 1050, and there are times when we use all of it. 
 

1. This was one of my largest drawbacks with the Mooney line. Some people don’t want to touch grass and I can understand why. I have a distant neighbor who flies a Mooney F model off a different grass strip regularly. When the snow finally melts up here we are planning to discuss and go for a ride. 

2. Thanks for the links of contacts. I’ll review and try reach out to several people when I get the chance. 
 

3. Glad to hear aircraft with damage history are of little issue if properly repaired. It doesn’t bother me, and thanks for reaffirming! 
 

4. I have heard that Mooneys fly great hand flown. In the Cherokee I often fly approaches by hand with the autopilot off, but as I fly in IFR conditions more often, the safety of a good autopilot is something I think will be on my shortlist of needs. 
 

 

Appreciate the info again, I probably won’t be able to respond to any messages until later this evening! 

Welcome aboard PF!

1) Check the prop clearance on the Mooney…. If you hit the prop, you weren’t landing properly… and you had two warning signs you couldn’t miss.  It won’t make a difference if the surface was paved….

2) I don’t use grass… but, I didn’t when flying a C152 either…

3) There are plenty of Mooneys that live on grass fields… with nice Hangar Homes…

4) There is a well known Mooney that lived on an unprepared grass field, shared with cows…. Find Bryan’s red M20C…

5) 2800’ is not really short, but it isn’t really long either… then add grass, and weather, and MGTW… you are PIC!

6) What you might find…

when you have stones and sandy ground… you might get tired of being careful of your paint and prop tips….

Kind of depends on what your objective is… Some Mooneys are treated special… others are cared for like a nice work horse… 

Best regards,

-a-

[PrairieFlyer]

Thanks again for all the responses.
 

Mcarterak, a couple reasons I really like the Mooney. The largest is the speed and efficiency. Haven’t had much luck finding another plane that can cruise at 150kn with a 200 HP engine. I’m very envious of the Mooney when I’m planning for 112 kn cruise burning similar fuel. The next reason would be the stability as a IFR a platform. From the forum, as well as reviews online, people seem to really like them for IFR. Last, the coolness factor. I’ve never been a high wing guy, and there is no denying the looks of the Mooney on the ramp. 

I have looked at Comanches as well. They seem like a great plane. My biggest concern is the age of them. Really want to get into something much newer. I’ve also heard there is issues with parts as the fleet ages. 
 

I have also looked into Arrows and the DA 40 as well. For me, the Arrows don’t offer much more speed the my Cherokee. The DA-40 also doesn’t compare to the Mooney, and comes with an insane asking price. 
 

The Debonair is a plane that I haven’t thought much of, but sounds like a viable alternative. 
 

As for the airstrip, sand blasting is definitely a potential issue. The ground doesn’t get soft, but it can be dry and lacking much grass as the summer goes on. Runway length hasn’t been much of a problem with the Cherokee. Both ends are wide open fields which helps with safety. There is a longer runway (also grass) 15 miles away. If I’m close to MGTW I will tell passengers to meet there. 

Beard, I am a member of COPA. I’ll do some more poking around on the website and look what I can find.

Interesting feedback from everyone. Sounds like a Mooney purchase for me may not be as cut and dry as I hoped! 
 

 

[Schllc]

The price ding for damage history is real, but as described, if you get the discount when you purchase, you give it when you sell it so it’s a wash. 
The harder to quantify challenge with damage history, is that if there are say 10 given people at any time looking for “your plane”. Half, if not more, will rule it out of potential planes to buy immediately.  Which obviously severely limits your market. 
The psychology of the purchase discrimination Is very real, so they are harder to sell. 
The first guy buying the plane after the damage has the benefit of the first hand account of events. The second guy is here say, and so on… 
But there is always a buyer out there, so you just wait. 

[carusoam]

18 minutes ago, PrairieFlyer said:

. Sounds like a Mooney purchase for me may not be as cut and dry as I hoped! 
 

 

Trying to do everything with only one plane is always going to be a challenge…

Once you have decided that speed and efficiency are the driving force….

things get much easier.

 

One challenge…

it can be extra difficult getting advice you can rely on…

Some people use their Mooneys on various surfaces without concern…. They also have a lot of experience… and skill.

They post their videos and you can hear their stall horn beep, just as their tires let out two squeaks and a whiff of tire smoke wisps into the air…

Their nose wheel always touches down on the painted stripe…. 

 

You are going to find it is more PIC skill than airplane skill…

And what you want to expose your machine to…

Go hang around the airports you are interested in using, and see who is using what plane for what reason…

 

There are ways to keep a plane well kept…. And clean up the ones that have run through the mud…

Stones and prop tips need to be avoided… and there are ways to handle that as well…

 

Find Bryan flying with the Outback group… it’s kinda funny…. Their planes are purpose built for that.  But, if it’s an airport… Bryan had no challenge with the calculations to be safe…. 
 

Some things just start costing a ton of dough…

For real Outback performance, you are going to need two planes….  

If you want to land on the water… your Mooney can do this…. Once!

PP thoughts only… I started with an M20C, then swapped for an M20R a decade later…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a- 

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, Schllc said:

The price ding for damage history is real, but as described, if you get the discount when you purchase, you give it when you sell it so it’s a wash…..The first guy buying the plane after the damage has the benefit of the first hand account of events. The second guy is here say, and so on… 
But there is always a buyer out there, so you just wait. 

The flip side is 20 years and 10 owners after a repair - it has been reviewed and looked at so many times - it has stood “the test of time”. It becomes less and less relevant as a purchase or sale issue. 

[1980Mooney]

8 hours ago, PrairieFlyer said:

Interesting feedback from everyone. Sounds like a Mooney purchase for me may not be as cut and dry as I hoped! 

In General Aviation, no purchase is as cut and dry as you hope. Everything is a compromise. There will always be surprises and unknowns especially with older aircraft. 

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

The flip side is 20 years and 10 owners after a repair - it has been reviewed and looked at so many times - it has stood “the test of time”. It becomes less and less relevant as a purchase or sale issue. 

That isn't really relevant to my comment.  People that don't buy damage history airplanes, don't care about the time or the number of owners.  They just move on.  That being said, the value has already taken the lick so now its just down to the time it takes to move, and with less prospects willing to consider, it would stand to reason it will take longer.  A friend of mine in real estate told me a clever analogy that is true for anything you are selling.  You have two levers, time or money.  Pulling one directly affects the other.  Want it to sell faster pull the price down.  Want it to take longer be prepared to wait....

I don't personally think damage history is always a huge problem on a plane, and yes the older a plane gets the more likely it will have some, but if some of the buyers out there avoid it because its a mental hurdle they refuse to accept, it is no less real.

[1980Mooney]

32 minutes ago, Schllc said:

That isn't really relevant to my comment.  People that don't buy damage history airplanes, don't care about the time or the number of owners.  They just move on.  That being said, the value has already taken the lick so now its just down to the time it takes to move, and with less prospects willing to consider, it would stand to reason it will take longer.  A friend of mine in real estate told me a clever analogy that is true for anything you are selling.  You have two levers, time or money.  Pulling one directly affects the other.  Want it to sell faster pull the price down.  Want it to take longer be prepared to wait....

I don't personally think damage history is always a huge problem on a plane, and yes the older a plane gets the more likely it will have some, but if some of the buyers out there avoid it because its a mental hurdle they refuse to accept, it is no less real.

In a fleet in which no new Mooney’s will ever be added, it is just a matter of time before some degree of damage history becomes the norm. 4 Mooney’s in the last 10 days were damaged. Look at ASIAS. And there are plenty that get damaged and don’t come to the attention of the FAA (like the Minnesota Bravo that fatally crashed - the Docket showed that the insurance company revealed that he botched a landing in 2017 which took out runway lights and tore up both wings. No FAA history of the incident.).