Old instrument clearance procedure

[GeeBee]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

Always sorry to have never flown a range approach. I used to fly PARs for fun at Elmendorf in Anchorage and Fritzsche AAF at For Ord near Monterey CA. It was always fun and the controllers appreciated the practice because they had to do some number of approaches for currency too.

Flew the range at OAK before they took it out. You're not missing anything, trust me. 

 

[midlifeflyer]

For those who still don't know what they are, this from the Instrument Flying Handbook. I think it's "old" in the sense that the widespread availability of radar and vectoring has limited its practical utility. 

Timed Approaches From a Holding Fix

Timed approaches from a holding fix are conducted when many aircraft are waiting for an approach clearance. Although the controller does not specifically state “timed approaches are in progress,” the assigning of a time to depart the FAF inbound (nonprecision approach), or the outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker inbound (precision approach), indicates that timed approach procedures are being utilized.

In lieu of holding, the controller may use radar vectors to the final approach course to establish a distance between aircraft that ensures the appropriate time sequence between the FAF and outer marker or fix used in lieu of the outer marker and the airport. Each pilot in the approach sequence is given advance notice of the time they should leave the holding point on approach to the airport. When a time to leave the holding point is received, the pilot should adjust the flightpath in order to leave the fix as closely as possible to the designated time.

Timed approaches may be conducted when the following conditions are met:

1. A control tower is in operation at the airport where the approaches are conducted.

2. Direct communications are maintained between the pilot and the Center or approach controller until the pilot is instructed to contact the tower.

3. If more than one MAP is available, none require a course reversal.

4. If only one MAP is available, the following conditions are met: a) Course reversal is not required; and b) Reported ceiling and visibility are equal to or greater than the highest prescribed circling minimums for the IAP.

5. When cleared for the approach, pilots should not execute a procedure turn.

[T. Peterson]

15 hours ago, cliffy said:

Who here besides me has ever flown an actual  LF Range approach?    :-) :-)

To add- How about a PAR?

PAR was the only precision approach option in Marine CH-46’s of the 1980’s. Otherwise it was a TACAN or ADF approach. There was also the ASR, but like the PAR was dependent on external equipment and a controller. 
Navigation back then was mostly an affair of a laminated map, a grease pencil and your finger!

[GeeBee]

Speaking of old navigation anyone ever fly the Consolan station north of SFO? You had to have a Narco or old ADF because it was 292KHZ and the King ADFs from the KR-85 and up only tuned down to 300KHZ. I used to navigate with it on ferry flights to HNL. Because I was bored, counting dots and dashes was easy and at least I could get a line of position at least, until you could pick up KGU in HNL.

[N201MKTurbo]

They had (may still have) PAR approaches at KDMA and KNYL. I have flown both a bunch of times. They are fun. About 15 years ago when I commuted to Tucson, I just departed KTUS and departure asks "Do you have time to do a PAR at DM?" They were training a new controller and needed a guinea pig. So I flew it. It was sort of cheating because it was severe clear. They told me not to land at the AFB, just do a low pass. I should have sent them a bill for gas...

[Hank]

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

Always sorry to have never flown a range approach. I used to fly PARs for fun at Elmendorf in Anchorage and Fritzsche AAF at For Ord near Monterey CA. It was always fun and the controllers appreciated the practice because they had to do some number of approaches for currency too.

My last PAR was in my no-longer-biennial-but-still-every-two-years Flight Review in 2016. Got my High Performance Endorsement flying a C-182, back when I was still thinking about moving to a later Mooney letter, at night; we went into Lawson Army Airfield KLSF, the nice controller told me [when I asked how low I could go], "go as low as you want, just don't let the wheels touch." The CFII wanted my to go missed at 200', but I kept the descent going until the beginning of the runway. On climbout, I noticed the panel wasn't as bright--sure enough, the alternator had died. We called Columbus KCSG and warned that me might have comm failure on the way back from Lawson. Sure enough, my first flight in the left seat of a 182 was at night, landing with no lights, no radio, seeing the green light in the tower and being thankful that the guy in the right seat knew his way around the field and stopped me from taxiing through the airline's area . . . .

[40_Year_Dream]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:14 AM, PT20J said:

That’s a different thing. But, I wouldn’t do that. I discussed this with controllers and they told me they consider lost communications an emergency since they don’t know your status, and they just get everyone out of the way of anywhere you might reasonably go. 

Interesting - as an instrument pilot-in-training, the 'lost comms' procedure is still being taught, and is on the written test i.e. fly to cleared altitude (or minimum), up to the 'expect futher clearance at xxxx', etc, etc.

[Skates97]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:14 AM, PT20J said:

That’s a different thing. But, I wouldn’t do that. I discussed this with controllers and they told me they consider lost communications an emergency since they don’t know your status, and they just get everyone out of the way of anywhere you might reasonably go. 

The guys on the Opposing Bases podcast have talked about this on a few different occasions. They said the same thing, continue on, fly the approach and they move everyone out of the way. The last thing they want is you going to a point and holding until xx:xx time and then beginning your approach. The sooner they have you on the ground the sooner they don't have to worry about where you are going and what you are going to do.

[rickseeman]

Years ago, on Sunday mornings, Nellis AFB in Las Vegas would let you shoot the PAR approach. Couldn't land, just do the approach. I was a private pilot, actually I don't know if I even had my license yet, and that guy could put me down the "glideslope" perfect. Wow it was easy.

[cliffy]

LAX had a PAR decades ago that I flew in C-195

[T. Peterson]

16 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Speaking of old navigation anyone ever fly the Consolan station north of SFO? You had to have a Narco or old ADF because it was 292KHZ and the King ADFs from the KR-85 and up only tuned down to 300KHZ. I used to navigate with it on ferry flights to HNL. Because I was bored, counting dots and dashes was easy and at least I could get a line of position at least, until you could pick up KGU in HNL.

No, but I think uncle Orville mentioned it one time….

[Hank]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

No, but I think uncle Orville mentioned it one time….

You knew him well, huh?

[T. Peterson]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

You knew him well, huh?

Only from sweeping out the bicycle shop!

[Pinecone]

Used to all USAF and USN airfields had PARs.

PAR is like an ILS, has glide slope info.  An ASR is like a VOR or Localizer, no glideslope info.

[N201MKTurbo]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:46 AM, GeeBee said:

Speaking of old navigation anyone ever fly the Consolan station north of SFO? You had to have a Narco or old ADF because it was 292KHZ and the King ADFs from the KR-85 and up only tuned down to 300KHZ. I used to navigate with it on ferry flights to HNL. Because I was bored, counting dots and dashes was easy and at least I could get a line of position at least, until you could pick up KGU in HNL.

I just read about CONSOLAN. It is pretty cool. The last one was turned off in 1991. 
 

It was invented during WWII by the Germans and they built three stations. The British figured it out pretty quickly and started using it heavily. After Spain was liberated, the station there went down. The British sent technicians down there and got it working again.

[GeeBee]

17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I just read about CONSOLAN. It is pretty cool. The last one was turned off in 1991. 
 

It was invented during WWII by the Germans and they built three stations. The British figured it out pretty quickly and started using it heavily. After Spain was liberated, the station there went down. The British sent technicians down there and got it working again.

Yes it is really simple to use, but the station takes up a lot of acres.

I used to have an Air Navigation professor who had a final exam that consisted of three questions. One was an altitude problem in which you set your altimeter wrong, the weather guy error reading the barometer etc and the question was, "What altitude on the mountain would they look for the wreckage?

The second questions was based on an old F-100 nuclear mission where you had to drop a nuke via a star sight. The mission required the pilot to preset the cockpit sextant to a given angle so the star sight dropped down to the cross hair, you pickled the nuke. The question was, what angle to you set the sextant.

The third was a combination CONSOLAN/celestial point of position.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Yes it is really simple to use, but the station takes up a lot of acres.

I used to have an Air Navigation professor who had a final exam that consisted of three questions. One was an altitude problem in which you set your altimeter wrong, the weather guy error reading the barometer etc and the question was, "What altitude on the mountain would they look for the wreckage?

The second questions was based on an old F-100 nuclear mission where you had to drop a nuke via a star sight. The mission required the pilot to preset the cockpit sextant to a given angle so the star sight dropped down to the cross hair, you pickled the nuke. The question was, what angle to you set the sextant.

The third was a combination CONSOLAN/celestial point of position.

I have a bubble sextant. I can’t imagine doing a sight reduction on a stormy night in a Mooney.

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I just read about CONSOLAN. It is pretty cool. The last one was turned off in 1991. 

Interesting, it is a manual version of what VOR and TACAN would be.

[GeeBee]

10 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have a bubble sextant. I can’t imagine doing a sight reduction on a stormy night in a Mooney.

Even worse, this mission had the pilot place the F-100 in a zoom climb at the correct speed eject the nuke so it would be lobbed at the target. All while reading a fold down sextant on the canopy. I think it was a torture mission created by SAC just to tick off the TAC guys.