Transition Training in Mooneys

[donkaye]

I am aware of a few people who recently purchased Mooneys.  While it is a real achievement to become a CFI, when it comes to transition training in a Mooney, not all CFIs are created equal.  Would you take your Rolls Royce to a Ford dealer for service?  I certainly don't.  I want someone who specializes in Rolls Royces and knows them intimately to work on mine.  Is it more costly?  You bet it is.  Likewise, I know a number of Mooney owners who go to a general A & P for their Annuals.  They get them on the cheap.  In general, from my experience, you get what you pay for.  I go to a Mooney Service Center for my Annuals.  Having owned my Mooney for 30 years, it became evident early on that what was caught on my Annuals would not have been caught with your general A & P.  So I pay a lot more for my Annuals, but I really feel comfortable flying my airplane the rest of the year knowing it was taken care of by a group of Mooney Specialists.

Likewise, Transition Training should be looked upon in the same way.  Too often new owners of Mooneys don't know what they don't know.  I have to admit that when I got my CFI 28 years ago, while I always planned on specializing in Mooney Instruction, I didn't recognize at the time that teaching in the Mooney was any different than teaching in a Cessna or Piper.   From the perspective of time I can say that it is.  The real reason for the difference is the landing gear system, whether it be the Johnson Bar or Electric Gear.  So, while the Mooney Specific Instructor can easily teach the Cessna or Piper aircraft, the reverse is not done well.  The shock discs and wing distance above the ground make all the difference.  Without oleo struts for damping, if the slope, airspeed, and descent rate are not "right on", the airplane is likely to bounce, and if bounce training is not included or taught improperly in the transition training, a future prop strike could be the result.  Also, "cheating" on normal landings using power to control touchdown is poor technique I've seen far too often.  While it's less offensive with the Cessna or Piper, short field landings are not in the cards using that technique in the Mooney.

All of this is to say don't be pennywise and pound foolish when checking out in a Mooney for the first time.  With proper training the Mooney is as easy to fly as the other types of airplanes.  Search out a CFI who makes Mooneys a speciality.  It will be well worth the effort.

[Hank]

I used the CFII recommended by my insurance company for the Cessna-to-Mooney transition, and a month later went to a MAPA PPP. My theory at the time was, "I've learned to fly the plane, now let's go learn to fly it right." I hit 100 hours total on my way to Hopkinsville, KY, and it was drinking from a firehose. Can't say enough good about that program!

[Danb]

42 minutes ago, Hank said:

I used the CFII recommended by my insurance company for the Cessna-to-Mooney transition, and a month later went to a MAPA PPP. My theory at the time was, "I've learned to fly the plane, now let's go learn to fly it right." I hit 100 hours total on my way to Hopkinsville, KY, and it was drinking from a firehose. Can't say enough good about that program!

Hank one starts this weekend in Reading,Pa

[Hank]

38 minutes ago, Danb said:

Hank one starts this weekend in Reading,Pa

Yes. For me, that's most likely a fuel stop enroute. I'll catch another one next year, it's time for a refresher again.

[hubcap]

I did a MAPA PPP the year I purchased my Mooney. It was a great investment in becoming a proficient Mooney pilot…which as @donkaye pointed out…is different than being a good Cessna or Piper pilot.

I have 300 hours in Myrtle now, but we are planning on attending a MAPA PPP event in the upcoming year as a refresher.

[Sue Bon]

Too bad they don't have them in Europe. I checked to see if I could attend one in the US, but the registration form said to bring your airplane, so that is out  

[WAFI]

Something to add:

Last year a purchased my Mooney and now have about 120 hours PIC time in it and couldn't be more happy with my purchase. I hired a Mooney CFI who actually owns a Mooney to do my transition training. The training I retrieved was usefully and mandatory in my opinion regards what insurance allows. The only down side to my training was I couldn't have had two better days for flying conditions, I mean it was perfect. Cool, Calm, Clear, etc... I don't think there's been a day like it since, really, a simulator couldn't have produced better conditions.  Two days and about 7 different airports, countless landings and I was signed off to kill. Drop my CFI off at his home airport in North FL and few South to KHWO, smooth landing and couldn't wipe the smile off my face. Little did I know at the time, I had no clue how to land my plane.

The next week was an eye opener. One crappy landing after another, bouncing, floating, skidding and my confidence was draining fast as the fuel I was burning. So, what did I do... I scrambled called everyone I knew that owned a Mooney (only 1 at the time) , YouTube, YouTube, MS, more YouTube, then back to MS. Purchased some landing videos and instruction off MS member. Nothing was really helping the landings. Finally my friend that owns a Mooney "C" was able to go up with me for practice. His method of landing was like no other and don't quote me but it was something like: 1.5 miles out, 1000 AGL, power to ideal, pitch for airspeed and glide it in with no power and damn if that didn't work. I diffidently got ride of any bounce coming in with hardly any energy and the floating went away. We did a dozen of these fine tuning the distance and altitude that was good for cutting the power. So, next day I went out to practice and found that I was lighter and had a stronger head wind so I needed to add power to make it to the runway, which flattened my approach, then power for altitude, pitch for airspeed and back to floating, etc... I always felt safe but man it was ugly!

Following week, my CFI friend was able to come fly with me and he's young but experienced and we've done some great scenario training in his Archer "great pilot". So, I tell him what I have been struggling with and show him how my original CFI show me how to land and how are friend with the "C" showed me how to land. We actually preformed both types of landings to be clear. I forgot to mention my CFI for transition training, his method was what I would call a "drag it in" method if you know what I'm talking about. We chatted a bit and came up with a brilliant idea of just reading the POH and flying over the threshold at the recommend speed "71 kts" with power, without power, it didn't matter just we agree it needed to be 71 knots over the threshold power to ideal and then never look back at the speed, just fly the plane. What happened was BUTTER, BUTTER, BUTTER AND MAYBE WHIPPED BUTTER sometimes and that's how I land my plane today. If I have a strong head wind, then I need more power if I approach low or I need to approach higher and pitch down but regards if I'm a 71kts of the threshold its a good landing and most importantly safe. Over the threshold and entering ground effect to be clear.

Feel free to criticize my approach or share your opinion, I've got thick skin. I know there's pilots out there that land with a completely different syle and are just fine. I would love to learn another technique that I see a lot on YouTube, is what I call the "stall horn landing". For some reason people don't land unless the stall horn is going off blaring. The only time I hear the stall horn is if I come in with to much energy and float which leads to flaring to much, my mistake but people do it and butter there landings. How about the "ride the trim" landing not sure but i think this is an Ovation thing. After I set my trim to my approach speed and angle I forget I have trim. I need to get up in an Ovation.

Ok, that's enough rambling for one day.

Never stop learning...

@donkaye

[201er]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

So, while the Mooney Specific Instructor can easily teach the Cessna or Piper aircraft, the reverse is not done well.

What is a Mooney Specific Instructor? Is it someone with special qualifications to teach in Mooneys? Is it a Mooney owner with an instructor rating?

[ArtVandelay]

What is a Mooney Specific Instructor? Is it someone with special qualifications to teach in Mooneys? Is it a Mooney owner with an instructor rating?

Insurance companies require 25 hours of Mooney time.

[WAFI]

56 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Insurance companies require 25 hours of Mooney time.

Avemco only require 10 hours.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

What is a Mooney Specific Instructor? Is it someone with special qualifications to teach in Mooneys? Is it a Mooney owner with an instructor rating?

A Mooney Specific Instructor in my opinion is a CFI who teaches almost exclusively in Mooneys.  The more Mooney time they have the better.  25 hours definitely doesn't cut it.  Owning a Mooney and teaching in Mooneys should be a prerequisite.  In the least I would ask the instructor before the training started how much Mooney time they had.  Don't be embarrassed to ask.  If it was less than 1,000 Mooney hours, I would pass.  Remember, you're looking for an "experienced" instructor.  In my case, for example,  I bought my Mooney in August of 1992 and got my CFI in February of 1994 in my airplane.  By then I had had a lot of Mooney time.  I immediately started teaching in Mooneys.  My mentor instructor was an aeronautical engineer and really understood the laminar flow wing.  That helped me.  Growth as an instructor takes time.  I don't think I had the perfect teaching method for landings down for a couple of years.   I did my landing video after 12 years of teaching, and, yes, the stall warning horn should go off nearly at touchdown, as shown in the video.

I have the greatest respect for airline pilots, but some of the most difficult transitions I have done have been airline pilots, usually because it is hard to get them out of the practice of starting the flare at 50 feet above the runway and being "heavy handed" with the yoke.  We're not flying aerobatics.  A "light" touch is the order of the day.

[dzeleski]

My insurance requirement was 5 hours in 2019. I had no complex and no retract with 80 TT.

3 years, ~400 hours, and a handful of different types later ive noticed the following....

• More hours does not equal experience, you can be just as shit at 500 hours as 1000 hours or 10000 hours. This goes for Pilots and CFIs. There are pilots that have many more hours then me that I will never get in another airplane with them as PIC. I dont care about a big or small number in your log book. I judge you purely based off of your flying ability, knowledge, and if a CFI how well you can explain concepts and get me to do the thing you want me to do.
• If you were taught correctly and fly all airplanes by the numbers a Mooney is not any different then any other airplane.
• If you were taught poorly you already fly poorly, a Mooney is going to amplifying your poor flying skills.
• Many people do not respect the hardware they are flying.

My transition to my J from a 172 was not that difficult or challenging. My 172 CFI would be on me if I was off airspeed by a needle width. Moving to my J we didnt need to correct airspeed issues, we only needed to correct understanding the need to plan further in advance. Thats a far easier task then reteaching someone how they fly. Now would going from a 172 to an Encore be far more difficult? Im sure, but in this case the J is not THAT different from your other airplanes. They are all certified under the same standards.

I've seen this personally with racing/trackdays, many people show up to their first track day with a 1000cc 200+mph missile. Some realize pretty fast that its too much and they go down to a 600 or 300cc. Those people are self aware and are able to recognize in order for them to get better they need to slow down and focus on technique. These people are the ones that almost always excel and their skill improves exponentially. The folks that stick with the 1000 generally fail, they crash, dont respect the serious speed that these bikes can carry, and either quit, or cause chaos in the slowest groups while never improving. The folks that really learn how to properly ride a smaller HP bike excel massively when they finally do jump to the big HP bikes.

On top of that some of the fastest and most talented guys I have had the privilege of riding with that had thousands of hours and thousands of laps turned (Some Pro level riders you can see on TV) are absolutely shit teachers. They cannot convey what they are doing, why it matters, and what results they expect out of it. CFIs have the same problem, you can have 300 hours or 10000 hours and not be able to truly explain how things work and why.

My point here is not only learning properly from the beginning, but also having the correct personal attitude to self critique and take advice without getting offended. Numbers dont matter, the way you were taught and continue to learn or the way you teach is far more important and some people just straight should not be teaching anything. "Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect."

[BravoWhiskey]

My insurance was a bit strict… required 10 hr transition + 25 hr solo b4 pax.  CFI minimums we’re 1000hrs, 100hrs in Complex and 100hrs in Bravo, and between 25-65yrs…

so… I had really no choice but to go with Mooney specific CFI

[M20F]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

If it was less than 1,000 Mooney hours, I would pass.  

So all those folks you taught in 1994 were given inadequate training and were unsafe?

[donkaye]

40 minutes ago, M20F said:

So all those folks you taught in 1994 were given inadequate training and were unsafe?

By the time I started  teaching I had over 500 hours of Mooney time.  As time has passed, yes,  I think I became a better and better instructor with more insight gained from earlier experiences.  Now, of my over 12,000 hours total time, I have 10,330 hours of Mooney time.  Between Don Kaye of 1994 and Don Kaye of 2022, I think you'd agree, the Don Kaye of 2022 would be the better choice.  So, yes, it's a chicken and an egg situation.  It's from that insight that I made the recommendations that I did.

Ironically, I would not qualify to have checked out BravoWhiskey, since I apparently have too much experience gained by age.  Sometimes the insurance companies don't have a clue.

[midlifeflyer]

22 hours ago, 201er said:

What is a Mooney Specific Instructor? Is it someone with special qualifications to teach in Mooneys? Is it a Mooney owner with an instructor rating?

IMO, it's a CFI who identifies and markets themselves as a Mooney [or whatever] specific instructor.

Although I don't discount the value of type experience in any aircraft, I think the implication that only one who markets themselves that way or only flies that type has any value. Speaking as a trainee, not as an instructor, I've received valuable type instruction from instructors who were not type-specific specifically because they had enough broader type experience to understand how my prior experience was relevant (or not) to the transition. 

As an instructor, when I do transition training, the first question I ask is, "what have you flown before?" Chances are it's one of the 30+ make/models I have flown (as Jack of all trades and maybe master of none  ) and can use that to help the pilot make connections. It's especially true of landing.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[donkaye]

14 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

What do you mean by this?  RE: "Cheating"

 

Anybody can make a landing using Power as a crutch.  You should know your airplane well enough to know when to withdraw Power to idle, and be able to bleed off airspeed to get to the landing attitude with the stall warning horn going off just as you touch down in the shortest distance. 

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

IMO, it's a CFI who identifies and markets themselves as a Mooney [or whatever] specific instructor.

Sorry, In my respectful opinion that couldn't be further from the truth.  The first question you should ask a transitioning instructor is "How much Mooney time do you have, to be followed with how much instructional Mooney time do you have?"  Of course asked tactfully.  That separates the wheat from the chaff.

[Hank]

17 hours ago, donkaye said:

Also, "cheating" on normal landings using power to control touchdown is poor technique I've seen far too often.

@Sue Bon, flying the plane into the runway under power and above stall speed is cheating under normal circumstances. Sure, it's required sometimes in strong crosswinds or after breaking out near minimums, but it's not a good "normal" procedure. People do it because it's easy to get a smoother landing, but it really eats up runway before and after touchdown, and it's much more difficult to bleed off the extra energy from flying onto the runway at 80-85 knots versus landing at stall speed of 50-55 knots.

[skykrawler]

Some of the shortest landings I have seen are performed under power on the back side of the power curve.  This also results in a nice nose high attitude.

[donkaye]

54 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

Some of the shortest landings I have seen are performed under power on the back side of the power curve.  This also results in a nice nose high attitude.

I understand that, but that is not a "normal landing".  Try landing by hanging on the prop in a laminar flow airplane like the Mooney and you're an accident waiting to happen.  The backside of the Power Curve on the laminar flow wing is much steeper than the non-laminar flow wing.  That means less control with Power.  Screw up just a little, and the induced drag can outweigh the power required, with the result of a stall and the plane dropping out from under you.  Bad news for both you and the plane.

[Utah20Gflyer]

When I bought my Mooney I had a very experienced Mooney instructor lined up but unfortunately we ended up having a scheduling conflict when it was time to finally pick up the plane in Arizona.  I ended up using a instructor who had some Mooney time but not nearly as much.  We spent the first 5 hours of the transition training flying the plane back to Utah, then the second day we did touch and goes and general familiarization.  Total 10 hours.   While it may not have been the most effective training ever given I think it was adequate.  My landings were good and I developed a flight regime that is safe with plenty of buffer room between me and bad outcomes.  Since then  I've learned a lot from just flying my plane in lots of different conditions and scenarios.   I look forward to getting more training in the future hopefully from a Super Mooney instructor.  I'm sure there is lots I don't know, but I don't think a Mooney is that difficult of an airplane to fly and a good pilot will be ok if they fly the plane by the numbers and respect the plane by adhering to adequate safety margins.  

Mooney's are well behaved sweet flying birds that just happen to be a little touchy in the landing phase.   They should be both respected and enjoyed!

[WAFI]

15 hours ago, donkaye said:

Anybody can make a landing using Power as a crutch.  You should know your airplane well enough to know when to withdraw Power to idle, and be able to bleed off airspeed to get to the landing attitude with the stall warning horn going off just as you touch down in the shortest distance. 

and the Mooney STOL competition begins... YES! 

[Parker_Woodruff]

16 hours ago, donkaye said:

Anybody can make a landing using Power as a crutch.  You should know your airplane well enough to know when to withdraw Power to idle, and be able to bleed off airspeed to get to the landing attitude with the stall warning horn going off just as you touch down in the shortest distance. 

Correct, but I'll add it's also not a fault to pad the landing with a tiny shot of power after a slightly-too-aggressive/eager flare puts you a foot or two too high above the runway.  You can still salvage an ok landing here without making yourself feel the arrival.

 

[donkaye]

14 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Correct, but I'll add it's also not a fault to pad the landing with a tiny shot of power after a slightly-too-aggressive/eager flare puts you a foot or two too high above the runway.  You can still salvage an ok landing here without making yourself feel the arrival.

 

I really recommend the latest LHS 200-C.  While the 100 was very good, the 200-C is even better.