Advice on Selling (No old logs)... M20K

[CharlesHuddleston]

First of all, I still love my 1982 Mooney M20K, and will be sad when she goes... Having said that, our mission has changed drastically, and we are moving up to a 340A. Already signed the paperwork for the purchase, so will have to make room in the hanger. When I purchased N1157L, I bought it from the US Marshal's service without any logs. Since that time, have re-finished the interior, upgraded the panel to Aspen 2000 MAX system, and completely overhauled the engine. The only thing left that I would do is re-paint. There is minor damage history since my possession, leading to re-skin on a wing section. I just need help/advice on how we go about selling. First off, I will list it here for sale in the classified forum. I have gained a TON of knowledge from your fellow Mooney drivers, and want to continue to support the 'home team.' 

 

EDIT: Total time (per hobbs) Just under 3,800 but can't verify;  TSMOH about 350 hrs, but still flying. I purchased it in late 2017.

 

My questions:

1. Should we try to use a broker (I don't think I will need one, but I have 0 experience with this part)?

2. How much value do people consider 'lost' on the lack of old log books?

3. Would it be worth while to paint prior to selling (I don't think I would re-coup the cost, but might move quicker...)?

4. How accurate is AOPA's vREF system, or do I just use that as a 'rough guide'?

 

Bottom line is no-one is going to pay more than it is worth to them. Appreciate everyone's feedback!

Edited July 19, 2022 by CharlesHuddleston

[PeteMc]

You didn't say how many years you've owned your K and how many hours/years you have with your current Logbooks.  My guess is it's a non issue.

Do you have the original US Marshal's Bill of Sale?  Might be a great conversation piece for whomever buys it!!

 

[Skates97]

4 minutes ago, CharlesHuddleston said:

3. Would it be worth while to paint prior to selling (I don't think I would re-coup the cost, but might move quicker...)?

 

Priced right planes are moving very fast, I don't think there is anything to be gained by painting.

[CharlesHuddleston]

8 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

You didn't say how many years you've owned your K and how many hours/years you have with your current Logbooks.  My guess is it's a non issue.

Do you have the original US Marshal's Bill of Sale?  Might be a great conversation piece for whomever buys it!!

 

Corrected original post. That is pretty important info when selling...

TT: 3,800 hrs (unverified), TSMOH: Roughly 350hrs and climbing. We've owned it for 5 years now.

[EricJ]

The logs should be a non-issue to educated buyers.   That said, you may have to educate some interested people.

It is unlikely you'd recover the cost of new paint in a sale, and leaving it to the next owner can be a sale point that they can customize it to their own tastes or keep enjoying it as-is.

Whether to use a broker or not I think boils down to whether you're willing to deal with the usual selling hassles yourself or whether you'd like to pay somebody to deal with them.   As mentioned previously, airplanes are selling when properly priced, so either way you should be okay.

 

[jaylw314]

An issue I ran into is that at least one bank was unwilling to finance the loan on aircraft without full logs.

I recall hearing that the value of old logs can account for up to 30% of the value of the aircraft, but I assume that would be worst case scenario (no logs up before 12 months ago).  I suspect that effect diminishes depending on how long ago the current records begin...

[LANCECASPER]

42 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

An issue I ran into is that at least one bank was unwilling to finance the loan on aircraft without full logs.

Exactly!

Engine logs maybe aren't quite as big of a deal since it's had a major overhaul since he's owned it. But they still are a hit to the value because if you ever want to use that engine as a core for a factory re-man you'll need the original logs for that engine. So it limits your engine options when that time comes. 

Airframe logs are the most valuable of the three. The only incident that shows up on a google search is the one mentioned in the first post (https://www.aviationarchives.org/incidents/report/1157L_MOONEY_M20K). If I was looking at that airplane the first thing I'd do is get a copy of the FAA records (probably through Aerospace Reports to save time) and look over every 337 filed. 

All of that being said if two identical airplanes were sitting side-by-side and one had complete logs I'd pay at least 20% less for the no-logs airplane since I know the next buyer would probably discount it by at least that much. One thing for sure, not as many people are willing to buy one without logs, which limits your audience.( Not in this case since it was sold by the U. S. Marshal's office, but back in the day some people "lost" the logs on airplanes to hide airframe damage.)

Regarding paint, airplane purchases are an emotional decision and have virtually nothing to do with logic. Asking someone to buy an airplane without logs may maybe overcome with a great appearing airplane. But asking them to buy an airplane that hasn't been painted since recent damage, and by the way it also doesn't have logs, is a stretch.

[carusoam]

If you like selling off your old cars and homes…. Selling off your beloved plane isn’t much different….

If you don’t want to deal with the hassle of pics, logbook copying, and tire kickers hoping to get a bargain….

Check in with Jimmy at GMax and discuss the cost of them doing the work…

Jimmy does a great job of representing the plane, so it sells properly….

Post some pics of the new ride! 

GA flying works so well…. Charles has graduated out of the Mooney ranks….

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

I’d bet you’ll get more for it through Jimmy. Your aircraft sounds very difficult to price with out logs; although not as bad as when you bought it since now you can show full AD compliance. But a well respected expert like Jimmy will be able to price it right and then have the credibility to get that price. Whereas a rookie like myself doesn’t have the credentials to convince anyone it’s really worth X in todays market; with prospective buyer insisting on a bigger discount.

Blue book and Vref are only a small part of the pricing equation. They give you a ballpark idea of how to price the airframe and engine but most everything beyond that is subjective including avionics upgrades and even paint and interior. They don’t translate all your optional equipment into a value like Jimmy can.

The big plus for you right now is that it’s truly a sellers market with low inventory.


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[ArtVandelay]

Priced right planes are moving very fast, I don't think there is anything to be gained by painting.

Depends on how bad it looks, I’ve seen some that I would declare not airworthy just on looks alone.

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Priced right planes are moving very fast, I don't think there is anything to be gained by painting.

I watch the market closely. In my opinion, the peak was about 8 weeks ago. Today I see a definite decline in sales volume, inventory sitting longer and lowering of asking prices. If you're selling, get it on the market NOW. If you're buying, wait 6-12 months as I believe prices will continue to fall during that time. I wouldn't paint at this time simply because it will prolong the time before you can get the airplane on the market.

Regarldess of accuracy or not, EVERYONE looks at vRef prices so at least having that data available would be important. It is only one data point, of course.

A broker isn't a bad option for this airplane and if I were going to put this airplane with a broker it would be Jimmy Garrison <jimmy@GMaxamericanaircraft.com>.

[steingar]

I'm selling right now.  The market is hot.  I think the OP should do likewise.  In a buyer's market missing logs are an albatross.  In a seller's market not so much.  Missing logs are just a matter of money.

[Mooneymite]

"Missing Logs" is not terribly descriptive.  "Which logs?" and "how long ago?" make a huge difference.

When I bought my Mooney, the original log was missing 1974-1981, but by 1998, there was ample log history to know the airplane.  Also, there was "supporting documentation" from the missing log period.  In 24 years, I've never needed anything that was in that original logbook, except it would have been nice to see the factory test flight sign off.

A plane missing recent logs is a different story.

In some cases, a "missing log" isn't really missing at all.  It is being held by someone who is owed money for work on the plane.  If this is the case, one might be able to induce the holder to release the book.

[EricJ]

Old logbooks aren't required to be kept and have little to do with the current state or maintenance of the aircraft.   They can be fun for historical or nostalgic purposes, but I think are mostly just a tool for buyers to try to use as a negotiating point.    They don't really seem to serve any other purpose.  In other words, they have value only because a buyer demands that they have value.   If the aircraft actually has value, the seller can leverage that just as well.   It'll fly fine without old logs.