T/O FLAP SETTING FOR LANDING ?

[Pinecone]

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/Schweizer2-33.html

First pictures shows them deployed.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/Schweizer2-33.html

First pictures shows them deployed.

yes, i remember now

 

[201er]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Is Brother Daniel a glider CFI?

memory check…. 

-a-

Yeah. He's currently competing in the 20 meter nationals in Kansas.

[jaylw314]

23 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I've done this and the airplane stalled consistent with the arcs on the airspeed indicator.  Perhaps my stall indicator is coming on too soon.  The numbers that folks discuss here and the numbers recommended based on 1.2 VSO always seem too slow for my airplane.  It always feels tail heavy like your climbing out of a hole with power on.  Keep the speed up a little and the glide slope feels nice.  Wondering now what speed folks use on a long final in IFR conditions.  I use 90-100 mph.  Then slow down close to the numbers.  

FWIW, I do my instrument approaches at 100 KIAS and half flaps.  It's above best glide speed so more stable, and about halfway between 90 and 120 KIAS on the timed approaches.  Even at an ILS minimum of 200', I know there's enough time to pull the power and cross the numbers at a more reasonable speed, something like 80 KIAS.  You do float a long way, but at any runway with ILS minimums, it's a runway plenty long enough.

Not everybody may like doing it that way, but on my checkride, I briefed my DPE before the approach that although the recommendation is to carry the same power and trim settings once you break out, I would not be doing that because it would mean carrying excessive speed to the ground, and that I've trained that way.  She nodded and said "well, you're in a Mooney, so that's pretty well thought out."

Also, IIRC, the stall horn is supposed to come on a certain amount above stall AOA.  I can't remember, but I thought it was like 5-10 KIAS above stall speed?  I'm pretty sure ground effect changes the angle of incidence during the flare, so I doubt the horn itself has much actual significance during that phase.

Edited June 8, 2022 by jaylw314

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Yeah. He's currently competing in the 20 meter nationals in Kansas.

Way cool!

And my memory is holding together…. 

Best regards,

-a-

[markgrue]

When flying from a 4000ft paved runway I rarely use flaps.   It is easier and the controls feel much more  solid.   I establish an approach on final at about 80mph and just hold it a ft or so off the runway and just let it quit flying and settle onto the runway.   Nice and smooth and if I need to go around it is already trimmed up.   When flying from  my 1800 ft grass runway I always use full flaps and bring it in about 70 on final and 60 to 65 over the numbers.   We'll it doesn't have numbers but you know what I mean.   It will take just about all of the trim and if I go around I have to hold a lot of down force.   At these speeds it very seldom will bounce.   Yes I use mph, but it doesn't matter what the units, I just look for the right numbers.   It could be furlongs per fortnight as long as the pilot is aware of what the number should be. 

 

Just my opinion mind you...

 

Mark 

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, markgrue said:

It could be furlongs per fortnight 

Ahhh, my high school physics teacher's favorite example! But the numbers are pretty large.

[Andy95W]

38 minutes ago, markgrue said:

When flying from a 4000ft paved runway I rarely use flaps.  —

When flying from  my 1800 ft grass runway I always use full flaps and bring it in about 70 on final and 60 to 65 over the numbers.

Yes I use mph, but it doesn't matter what the units, I just look for the right numbers.   It could be furlongs per fortnight as long as the pilot is aware of what the number should be. 

 

So, you use whatever flaps are needed based on the situation and you’re able to fly your airplane effectively across its full range of capabilities.

The nerve of some people!  Blasphemer!

[markgrue]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Ahhh, my high school physics teacher's favorite example! But the numbers are pretty large.

In my physics class we had to figure the speed of sound in furlongs per fortnight.  A lot of the students did not even know what a fortnight was.

[Andy95W]

1,989,192.8 furlongs per fortnight for the speed of sound?

[ArtVandelay]

I can do mach .225 …still waiting for ATC to ask me that.

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I can do mach .225 …still waiting for ATC to ask me that.

Just realize that Mach varies with air density and temperature. 

[bradp]

I’m not a perfect pilot. And I had a 6 month hiatus while the plane was DFM.  Yesterday I landed in some gust factor that was like 21 G 31.  
 

So in circumstances when I have a higher probability of a go around, I land with half flaps because my plane is automatically configured for climb and that is exactly one less thing I have to do during a critical phase of flight… so call that an insurance policy against ducking up  

When I want to make the first taxiway, I land full flaps. 

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

I’m not a perfect pilot. And I had a 6 month hiatus while the plane was DFM.  Yesterday I landed in some gust factor that was like 21 G 31.  
 

So in circumstances when I have a higher probability of a go around, I land with half flaps because my plane is automatically configured for climb and that is exactly one less thing I have to do during a critical phase of flight… so call that an insurance policy against ducking up  

When I want to make the first taxiway, I land full flaps. 

That's exactly what I discussed with a CFI today before flying particularly as it applies to an IFR approach.  I also tried adding more flaps today and slowed down about 5 mph.  The stall warning horn was chirping more than I would like but  the landing was much better.  I've verified actual stall speeds on the ASI in flight but my stall warning horn does seem to be a bit nervous and too anxious to squawk.  I need to research how much higher than stall it's supposed to activate.   

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

That's exactly what I discussed with a CFI today before flying particularly as it applies to an IFR approach.  I also tried adding more flaps today and slowed down about 5 mph.  The stall warning horn was chirping more than I would like but  the landing was much better.  I've verified actual stall speeds on the ASI in flight but my stall warning horn does seem to be a bit nervous and too anxious to squawk.  I need to research how much higher than stall it's supposed to activate.   

Perhaps consider some slow flight with an instructor to increase your comfort level. The stall horn in most Mooneys sounds way ahead of the stall break in some cases by as much as 10kts.  A few chirps on short final not uncommon. During my flight review, I typically am asked to do a complete 360° in each direction with the plane dirty and the stall horn sounding the whole time.  

[MikeOH]

On 6/8/2022 at 5:58 PM, markgrue said:

In my physics class we had to figure the speed of sound in furlongs per fortnight.  A lot of the students did not even know what a fortnight was.

LOL! My physics teacher made us race snails...and then express their speed in furlongs per fortnight

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Perhaps consider some slow flight with an instructor to increase your comfort level. The stall horn in most Mooneys sounds way ahead of the stall break in some cases by as much as 10kts.  A few chirps on short final not uncommon. During my flight review, I typically am asked to do a complete 360° in each direction with the plane dirty and the stall horn sounding the whole time.  

My CFI is a PHD Aerospace Engineer.  A couple of years ago we planned a flight to compare and "calibrate" the ASI arcs with the actual stall of the aircraft.  The numbers were right on.  I can't remember if we recorded when the stall warning activates but we discussed doing this today soon.  We both felt like we were a little slow today on short final but we were still ahead of the recommended book numbers.  Yes the landing was easy.  I like the idea of a dirty 360.  

Edited June 11, 2022 by DCarlton

[PT20J]

From the M20J service manual

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Perhaps consider some slow flight with an instructor to increase your comfort level. The stall horn in most Mooneys sounds way ahead of the stall break in some cases by as much as 10kts.  A few chirps on short final not uncommon. During my flight review, I typically am asked to do a complete 360° in each direction with the plane dirty and the stall horn sounding the whole time.  

I'd suggest that the onset of the stall warning is triple checked operationally before trying this.   With aging more of these airplanes have had the stall switch removed for attention or replacement, and they're not trivial to adjust on reinstallation, at least mine hasn't been.  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I'd suggest that the onset of the stall warning is triple checked operationally before trying this.   With aging more of these airplanes have had the stall switch removed for attention or replacement, and they're not trivial to adjust on reinstallation, at least mine hasn't been.  

A good idea.
The horn has never been removed from my bird and I know it gives plenty of warning. The airframe gives pretty obvious warning as well just not as advanced. 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Perhaps consider some slow flight with an instructor to increase your comfort level. The stall horn in most Mooneys sounds way ahead of the stall break in some cases by as much as 10kts.  A few chirps on short final not uncommon. During my flight review, I typically am asked to do a complete 360° in each direction with the plane dirty and the stall horn sounding the whole time.  

I thought they weren't supposed to be doing that any more?

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I thought they weren't supposed to be doing that any more?

The guidance on stalls and slow flight may be a bit more conservative  than it once was, but there is no reg that prohibits flying to the buffet or the break.

Furthermore, The FAA gives a fair amount of latitude to the reviewer in deciding the appropriate air work for the review."
The Airplane Flying Handbook leaves a bit to be desired in their definition of slow flight, which is as follows:

Slow flight is when the airplane AOA is just under the AOA which will cause an aerodynamic buffet or a warning from a stall warning device if equipped with one. 

in my airplane the stall warning sounds well ahead of the aerodynamic buffet. 

That definition describes similar but different conditions/airspeeds based on whether the aircraft has a stall warning device.

I think it is useful to train right at the edge of the buffet; so that’s what I do.  I also think it’s useful to feel the plane transition from mushy, to buffet, to full breaks and recovery and secondary break (which are typically more aggressive).  If one is uncomfortable with the practicing the maneuvers mentions above, practicing at the edge of the the stall warning is useful practice as well.

However, most folks don’t do much of that either.

[rbp]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

onset of the stall warning is triple checked operationally before trying this

Should go off in in every flare???

[Shadrach]

48 minutes ago, rbp said:

Should go off in in every flare???

People who might benefit from practicing slow flight because they are landing fast won’t hear it any flare.

[rbp]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

People who might benefit from practicing slow flight because they are landing fast won’t hear it any flare.

Exactly!