Best GPS and Auto Pilot Upgrade for a 1963 M20C?

[Van Lanier]

I've just partnered with a friend on a 1963 M20C.  It's in great mechanical shape, but needs a GPS navigator with approaches and a modern autopilot with altitude hold and roll steering.  A simple solution is preferred, as we have both been flying for over 50 years.   Suggestions greatly appreciated.  

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Van!

Find Chase Larabee… At Avionics Source…   https://avionicssource.com. @bmcconnaha
(Chase and team, have been helpful for other people with the similar request….)

Tell us something more about your wants…

1) Are you a big G fan, or not….

2) Do you want an all in one box VOR,ILS, GPS, comm….

3) Are you staying to a budget….

4) Is the AP for today, or in the future….?

5) Is there any hope for color screens… or just classic six pack…

6) Do you have ADSB out already 

7) There are some nice GPS/comm devices with small color screens that are popular for replacing old nav/coms…

Visit…

Dynon

Avidyne

Garmin

Trying to be your friend…

There are as many solutions as there are Mooney pilots….  See if we can start eliminating things off your list…

PP thoughts only, not an avionics guru…

Best regards,

-a-

-a-

[Van Lanier]

What a fabulous reply!  Thank you, very much.  

I will certainly contact Chase Larabee.  Wonderful resource.  Thank you. 

I am not a Garmin devotee, but understand market domination.  

We have two KX-155s, with G/S, plus DME and ADF in the M20C now.  Currently using a Garmin 660 for situational guidance.  Have Garmin 345 transponder with ADSB in/out.  

Six pack with will work for us.   Forever airplane (we are old guys!) 

That said, will need RNAV approaches for destinations not served by ILS, VOR (and dare I say it, ADF approaches). 

We are thinking a Garmin GPS with approaches (Com not necessary) and S-tec 30 with altitude hold and GPSS.  

Many thanks for the referrals.  

 

[M20F]

A Garmin GFC500 is going to be better and cheaper then an S-TEC of any flavor.  Keep a 155 and add a GNC355 and a G5 if you want an HSI.  Personally I wouldn’t buy anything but Garmin these days.  

[Mark942]

I have an Avidyne IFD550 with a S-tec 60-2 that was already in the plane.  Some serious installation problems that were very frustrating and expensive, but finally woke up and took the plane to a different installer and the problems were all resolved in one visit.  I LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT.  The reason I went with Avidyne over Garmin was that the IFD is second generation to Garmin, so they could improve on additional features, but the biggest reason is that every function that can be done on the Touch Screen can be performed with dedicated push buttons and knobs.  I seldom touch the screen.  Just the way I learned to use it, and in any turbulence at all, I REALLY am glad I'm not trying to use the touch screen.  I have an IPad with Foreflight on my yoke with charts.  That's hard enough to deal with on a touch screen, let alone reaching out to a panel three feet away.  Also, because of my install problems, I got to know the tech folks at Avidyne pretty well and there simply isn't enough space here for me to tell you how great they are and how they supported me, including providing me with a new unit after the warranty had expired to help resolve the problems and guiding me to a new installer that was able to trouble shoot all the wiring mistakes.  They didn't have to give me a new unit, but they did.  I didn't even ask, they offered.  You measure a company's customer service AFTER the sale, not before.

If I didn't already have the S-tec 60-2 with vertical speed and altitude I would have gone with the Garmin GFC500 autopilot.  Since I already had a very capable AP I only needed to install a $900 S-tec GPSS steering module.

Hope this helps, just my experience, YMMV.

-mark

[MikeOH]

Can’t speak to price but I’ve been very happy with my STEC-30 w/alt hold and GPSS that came with my plane. Trouble free for the 5 years I’ve had it.

[S.C.]

My 65C has been gradually updated. I don’t have an autopilot but I am a huge fan of the GTN 650 for navigation.  I have used it for years and it pairs very nicely with the dual G5’s.  It was on the reasonable scale for price. The upgrades are worth it.  

[M20F]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:26 PM, S.C. said:

My 65C has been gradually updated. I don’t have an autopilot but I am a huge fan of the GTN 650 for navigation.  I have used it for years and it pairs very nicely with the dual G5’s.  It was on the reasonable scale for price. The upgrades are worth it.  

I have a 650 & a 430.  If you have a source for a VOR/COM like he does in a KX155 which is a bullet proof radio the GNC355 is a solid option.  At some point my 430 (non WASS) will get replaced with a 355. 
 
For the Stec folks I have one as well.  It works great, it also came with the plane.  If you are buying from scratch no conceivable reason to buy anything other than a GFC500.

[Oscar Avalle]

I have a combination of GTN750 and 650, with an Aspen 2500 connected to a stec55x. It worked well for me for many years. I got the upgrade on the aspen to manage the Stec from the aspen screen(altitude hold, vs,
Etc).
I strongly recommend this combination

Oscar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[goterminal120]

I flew  an s-tech 30 for the first time this past week. I would still have my C if I knew that autopilot flew that well. I fell into the hype about how the s-tech is old technology and didn’t work very well. I was in a piper 180 on a gusty day, altitude was spot on and heading was corrected for wind with out wondering or harsh inputs.

  I was quoted 28,000 to install a gfc 500, 20,000 for the s-tech, if I knew then what I know now the s-tech would be in the panel and I would still have my Mooney. live and learn

[McMooney]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:28 PM, Van Lanier said:

I've just partnered with a friend on a 1963 M20C.  It's in great mechanical shape, but needs a GPS navigator with approaches and a modern autopilot with altitude hold and roll steering.  A simple solution is preferred, as we have both been flying for over 50 years.   Suggestions greatly appreciated.  

how about swapping the garmin 345 for a garmin 375,  add a g5/gi275 and gfc500 autopilot.

[Van Lanier]

Wow!  Many thanks, guys, for the helping ideas and suggestions.  I am most grateful.  

The avionics adventure begins.

[Fly Boomer]

On 5/14/2022 at 7:20 AM, Oscar Avalle said:

combination of GTN750 and 650

In the M20C (or maybe any Mooney) do the 650 and 750 have to be side-by-side (one in each stack)?

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

In the M20C (or maybe any Mooney) do the 650 and 750 have to be side-by-side (one in each stack)?

I don't think there's room to do that. The ones I've seen with two Garmin's put them one above the other in the center stack.

[M20F]

7 minutes ago, Hank said:

I don't think there's room to do that. The ones I've seen with two Garmin's put them one above the other in the center stack.

The better question is why do it.  All the 750 is essentially is a bigger screen.  You can buy a really nice iPad for the difference.  I love the folks with 2 X 750 and then a 500 display.  Fail to understand the purpose. 

[Oscar Avalle]

7 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

In the M20C (or maybe any Mooney) do the 650 and 750 have to be side-by-side (one in each stack)?

No, they can be one above the other.

[Greg Ellis]

22 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

No, they can be one above the other.

In my 63 C model, I have the push pull controls, not the throttle body like Oscar's.  The push pull controls are about where the 650 is in this photo so in some C models, I don't think they will fit one on top of the other.  See panel photo below.  This is with a GFC500, GNS530 and GNC355.  Not sure if a 750 and a 650 would fit with the controls where they are.  Maybe, maybe not.  Of course without the GFC500 there is more room but I am not sure if it would be enough.  And definitely not enough room for a 750, 650 and audio panel.

[carusoam]

Greg,

One common limit is probably the steel tube running along the bottom of the panel… 

Some people grab this tube to help slide their chair forward…

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

I think the important thing we can all agree on is the push/pull controls are far cooler than the throttle quadrant.  

[carusoam]

Today’s pot stirring award has been tossed to/at Mike… directly. 

For mixing in one of the lesser known endless debates found on MS….

Quadrants vs. Push/Pull… controls

throw in Vernier vs. non-vernier controls just for spice…

 

Why can’t we get vernier throttle quandrants?

Electric Servo ones to drive my future my auto land feature….  
 

The last M20U&Vs… got keyboards that look like they are based on the throttle quadrants… shape, size and location…
 

Now back to the scheduled program…

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

well, after many hours behind both... 750XI and IFDs, i can tell you the avidyne has a much better thought out operating system IMO.  My Mooney has had both in it.  PS, i work for Chase at Avionics source.  happy to help with anything you need

[BobbyH]

I'm sort of in the same boat as @Van Lanier with my M20E.  It has a couple of good KX155s that are functioning well but my GPS must have been purchased in the early 1990's or late 1980's, (Apollo Flybuddy 820).  What I haven't seen is anyone talking about the Garmin GPS175 panel mount.  Has anyone installed one or tried it? 

I'm know I'm just a young buck in my mid 60's but cash flow isn't what it used to be so am looking for a capable system without emptying the bank.  I do have an STEC-50 with altitude hold that works great, even with the Apollo GPS.  So am looking for a reasonable IFR capable GPS that will give me clear LPV approaches at minimal cost for us CBs. 

[David Lloyd]

It seems much more is written about the 355 and 375 than the 175.  Search for comments on those.  All three the GPS and display is the same, the 355 adds a com radio, the 375 adds a transponder and ADSB in and out.   All will Bluetooth to an iPad running either Garmin Pilot or Foreflight. They use much of the same buttonology as the bigger screened and even more capable 650 and 750. If all you need is a GPS, the 175 a great value.

I do have a 375 because I needed both a GPS and an ADSB solution.  Absolutely no regrets.

[BobbyH]

3 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

I do have a 375 because I needed both a GPS and an ADSB solution.  Absolutely no regrets.

I needed to get the ADS-B solution before I could bring the plane home since I'm under the Seattle Class B airspace.  So a little Stratus ESGi took care of that.  Thanks for the plus on the GPS 175.  It seems to fit both function and hopefully soon the finances too.  I do have an iPad Mini mounted on the yoke so big screen isn't as important for me yet. 

[Andy95W]

I have a GPS-175 and I love it.  I already had 2 solid COM radios and ADS-B out.  Saving $$ was a nice bonus.