Liability Insurance

[Greg252AY]

It seems to me at this point that insurance isnt worth the price we pay. I am looking at Liability and non movement insurance only for my 252. If i crash and survive the aircraft would be quite alot for parts. maybe 60% of the value. Do any of you just pay for liability? I fly for a profession with a ATP and thousands of hours and my insurance is very expensive and getting higher each year. What can I expect to pay for Liability only? I can afford the lose of my plane but cant afford to taxi into a gulfstream on the ramp. 
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[hammdo]

For my C, I'm liability- not in motion. Cost is 60-65% less without hull.

Still have theft coverage and I have the not in motion for full value...

-Don

Edited March 28, 2022 by hammdo

[larrynimmo]

My J …1981 insurance history

year.  Value.  Cost.  Level proficiency age

2017.  65k.      2,800.  Student           62

2018.   135k.   2,400.     Pilot              63

2019.    135k.   1,850.     Pilot              64

2020.    135.k.   1920.   Instrument   65

2021.     135k.     1980.  Instrument    66

2022      150k      2320  instrument    67

 Haven’t paid my 2022 policy…have til 6/6/2022…cost between 135k- 150k is about $100

[PT20J]

The hull premiums are going up because of losses and increased valuations. Liability remains pretty inexpensive. For $1MM smooth I'm only paying about $600. If you can afford to self insure the hull, that's a good way to go. But you have to be willing to lose your airplane if you have a wreck and cannot afford to replace it. If that were to happen, the hull insurance premium might seem a good investment in retrospect. 

[carusoam]

The gentlemen in the 70 and over crowd are bumping into this issue…

While many are flying into their 80s… and then some.

There is more than one thread around here for that…

 

For insurance questions… I always invite our really good young insurance guy… @Parker_Woodruff… who did a nice job updating a 231 to 252 status back in the day… (did I get that right?)

He sees both sides of the coin…

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

49 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For insurance questions… I always invite our really good young insurance guy… @Parker_Woodruff… who did a nice job updating a 231 to 252 status back in the day… (did I get that right?) 

If I remember correctly he had a 201 (N19NS ?), then did an Encore upgrade to a 252 (N252BH I think)

[Parker_Woodruff]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If I remember correctly he had a 201 (N19NS ?), then did an Encore upgrade to a 252 (N252BH I think)

Yes.  252 upgraded to Encore.  Sorely miss it...

[Parker_Woodruff]

It would be helpful to know some specifics, but I like some of the benefits of having physical damage coverage...even if I could afford to replace the plane after a total loss.

[GeeBee]

16 hours ago, Greg252AY said:

It seems to me at this point that insurance isnt worth the price we pay. I am looking at Liability and non movement insurance only for my 252. If i crash and survive the aircraft would be quite alot for parts. maybe 60% of the value. Do any of you just pay for liability? I fly for a profession with a ATP and thousands of hours and my insurance is very expensive and getting higher each year. What can I expect to pay for Liability only? I can afford the lose of my plane but cant afford to taxi into a gulfstream on the ramp. 
w
t

I hear you, and the thought has crossed my mind. At the current values of salvage it may be preferable to self insure. I cannot figure why hull is "all or nothing". I would be willing to purchase a high deductable hull policy, like 50 or 100K which would take most the gear ups and wing dings off the books of ihe insurer.

[David Lloyd]

16 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

My J …1981 insurance history

year.  Value.  Cost.  Level proficiency age

2017.  65k.      2,800.  Student           62

2018.   135k.   2,400.     Pilot              63

2019.    135k.   1,850.     Pilot              64

2020.    135.k.   1920.   Instrument   65

2021.     135k.     1980.  Instrument    66

2022      150k      2320  instrument    67

 Haven’t paid my 2022 policy…have til 6/6/2022…cost between 135k- 150k is about $100

Just got my renewal notice yesterday.  After years of silly low premiums, things have turned around.  6713 TT, 5895 Retractable, 591 M20C.  One claim a dozen years ago for a prop strike inspection and one new blade.

2019.    70k.    $946.   Commercial & Instrument       68

2020.    70.k.   $1562.  Commercial & Instrument      69

2021.     70k.   $1866.  Commercial & Instrument      70

2022      70k    $2107.  Commercial & Instrument      71

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think the conundrum is that is you have a high enough net worth that you can reasonably self insure then you would also have enough income to easily pay the premium, so why bother trying to save some money and except all that extra risk.   If you do it to save money when you can't really afford it then you are risking taking yourself out of aviation when you total your plane and can't replace it.  

Another thing to consider is that no insurance may affect your decision making process when in a life threatening situation.   If my engine quits and I have to choose between trying to save the plane or taking the best option to save my life I get to choose the safest option for myself with no financial consequence. 

  In my opinion insurance is worth it, even if it is seemingly very expensive.  Obviously that is a personal choice though.  Which ever way you go I hope things work out well for you. 

[larrynimmo]

15 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I hear you, and the thought has crossed my mind. At the current values of salvage it may be preferable to self insure. I cannot figure why hull is "all or nothing". I would be willing to purchase a high deductable hull policy, like 50 or 100K which would take most the gear ups and wing dings off the books of ihe insurer.

Here’s the issue with that….you have a plane worth 150k…you insure it for 60k…you have a 50k gear up event….guess what insurance is going to do…they will not be handing you that 50k check to repair…they are totaling the plane, and they will keep it, giving you that 60k  check with a smile….

[GeeBee]

51 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

Here’s the issue with that….you have a plane worth 150k…you insure it for 60k…you have a 50k gear up event….guess what insurance is going to do…they will not be handing you that 50k check to repair…they are totaling the plane, and they will keep it, giving you that 60k  check with a smile….

Under the present way policies are set, yes. You are talking about under insurance. I am talking about an automotive model, where you insure for the full value, but if something happens, you cover the first 50 or 100k then insurance tops up. I do not see why the industry cannot provide that model. If I wreck my 100k car with a 5k deductable, I pay 5k and they fix my car up to policy limits. If I have a 2k bumper rub, I don't even put in a claim. If you had a 50k deductable, you would repair out of pocket for a gear up with no claim. 

[A64Pilot]

Curious, I can’t imagine the decision to save the plane and not my life not being the same decision, as aircraft damage and personal damage are surely related?

Can you explain?

I think insurence sort of follows whether you or the bank owns the airplane, I assume if the bank does, then you have no choice?

But if you own it out right, then in actuality you could probably afford to lose it, it would hurt I’m sure but won’t make you lose your job etc in most instances.

The Mooney is the only airplane I’ve insured, and that’s due to my paranoia about the gear, anything else I feel I can control, but that gear, it’s possible I may can not.

Insurence is a funny thing, When we were on the boat I got a rather expensive dinghy, over $10K so I added it to our insurence, thinking of course the bill would increase, but it actually dropped slightly, due to the multi boat discount.

‘Then later I significantly increased the hull value. expecting the rate to increase by the percentage of hull value, but it didn’t. ReasonI was given was thwt it didn’t was that in reality hull value is only a small part of insurence cost, that Million in liability and environmental cleanup is a significant expense.

Boats are seeing the same insurence issues as aircraft, what’s killing the boat insurence is all of the Charter boats in the Caribbean that stay in the hurricane zone, and honestly as the Charter company doesn’t own them (they are almost all lease backs) the attitude is heck with the boats let the insurence deal with it, that’s why we have it.

[A64Pilot]

16 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I hear you, and the thought has crossed my mind. At the current values of salvage it may be preferable to self insure. I cannot figure why hull is "all or nothing". I would be willing to purchase a high deductable hull policy, like 50 or 100K which would take most the gear ups and wing dings off the books of ihe insurer.

I can only assume that they aren’t interested in reducing policy costs? Or maybe there isn’t enough interest?

I suspect that the majority of insurence is from people with newer high buck airplanes that the bank owns and the bank I assume sets policy requirements?

I wonder what the insurence cost of a new million buck Cirrus is compared to a 100,000 201 ? I’m sure it’s not 10 times, maybe 2 or 3?

I looked at insuring my little C-140 this year but the cost per dollar insured was about twice as much, just wasn’t worth it to me, I assume it’s a sliding scale by that I mean if you double hull value cost doesn’t double, but how much does it go up on average in percent?

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by A64Pilot

[KLRDMD]

I just got my insurance renewal. It went down quite a bit from last year.

[larrynimmo]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I just got my insurance renewal. It went down quite a bit from last year.

You can’t just say that…tell us what is unique in your situation to drop your rate….

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

You can’t just say that…tell us what is unique in your situation to drop your rate….

The amazing thing…

He has gotten to year #2 with the same aircraft… 

-a-

[A64Pilot]

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The amazing thing…

He has gotten to year #2 with the same aircraft… 

-a-

My insurence went up on year 2, which was this year, I expected a drop. I sent Parker my info, he declined to quote, which I believe means I’m getting a pretty good deal already if he couldn’t beat it. What apparently makes mine higher is I’m based off of grass, but then I was last year too. Apparently grass means many companies won’t even quote

I’m over 10,000 hours, Commercial / instrument, but only had 35 Mooney hours last year and those were 30 years ago, but I didn’t need any check out, I thought after a year of accident free and another 100 hours or so I’d see a decrease, but it went up I guess maybe 10% 

I’m thinking insurence is going up, and with this “temporary” inflation isn’t stopping. I may self insure like I did my Maule, and do with my 140, only reason I don’t is the gear, a gear up, that’s not my fault is a possibility.

As of today the news is reporting inflation is the worst seen in over 40 years, I remember the early 80’s and they sucked

Edited April 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

You can’t just say that…tell us what is unique in your situation to drop your rate….

I only had 5 hours make and model when I was insured last year. That's the only thing I can think. I actually didn't fly anywhere near my normal hours per year as the airplane was down for avionics for 3.5 months. My premium went down by $800. I'm not complaining.