Should Tesla buy Mooney?

[mike_elliott]

On 4/6/2022 at 3:34 PM, ZuluZulu said:

Lol.  Always the victim.

By 2015, they write, companies led by Musk had already gotten billions of dollars in subsidies, tax breaks, and other handouts. New York state even shelled out $750 million to build a factory for Musk's troubled SolarCity operation and then said the company would pay no property taxes for a decade, saving Musk another $260 million. "He seems to have a magic touch," says Harvey. "He's gotten so good at raising money from state governments, getting subsidies, tax abatements, and so on, that sometimes it seems as though the states are lining up to offer him money to come and do business."

https://reason.com/2021/03/05/5-ways-elon-musk-and-other-billionaires-get-welfare-for-the-rich/

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-18/elon-musk-in-defense-of-the-tesla-ceo-s-managerial-excellence

 

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-18/elon-musk-in-defense-of-the-tesla-ceo-s-managerial-excellence

 

Good article, even with the green hyperbole…..

Attacking people for property tax forgiveness is a canard.
The credits are predicated on the taxes of the developed property, not the vacant, and likely agricultural zoned land it was before development.
In exchange, the recipient provides billions over the decade to the local economy.  
They do this through direct spending, jobs, infrastructure improvements  and also spends hundreds of millions developing the property, which also goes directly into the local economy.  Land values increase, the economy grows and the locals see more amenities.
Municipalities literally fight over who can give more to attract these types of companies because the benefit is so great.  When journalists attack the companies after by suggesting they got gifts or handouts is dishonest at best.  It was a negation that always provides enormous benefits to the local economy, and more often than not in perpetuity. 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

Good article, even with the green hyperbole

agreed, after all, it is a Bloomberg article so there has to be "some" of that or the author might need to seek new employment . I found it factual and the data of the graphs somewhat eye opening of this guys abilities in spite of the cultural headwinds he continually faces from all sides, and why I believe if he were to plant his name on the corner office at Kerrville, it would ultimately be as successful as all his other ventures have been. I personally doubt he would do it to go down the same paths the many previous owners have went however, and bring a completely different look, feel and product out of the aeronautical holyland. The Musk haters have a perfect opportunity today to put their $ where their hate is by shorting TSLA stock before they report 1st qtr earnings today at 5:30 EST. The fanboys have the same opportunity to go long.

 

[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

To see the latest in EVs…

I went skiing in VT…

Where parking lots are mostly gravel covered in snow and ice….

There we’re a dozen charging stations on one side of a parking lot… with an assortment Of cars taking a charge…

No fear of environmental hazards of fuel spills… that come with cold locations, and shifting equipment due to deep freezing conditions…

 

-a-

Yes but the batteries don’t do well in the cold, and usually are heated to keep from getting real cold, this requires power from the battery of course, less complex EV’s like the Leaf don’t have thermal management and really don’t do well.  Then add in that most EV’s are heated by electric resistance heating which takes a lot of power and that of course further eats the battery charge, Tesla recently developed a heat pump that will work in below zero weather, but of course loses efficiency in real cold down to a COP of 1, which is the same as resistance heating.

ICE cars of course have huge amounts of waste heat that can be used to keep the car toasty warm.

So bottom line, current EV’s don’t do as well in the cold, Tesla is better at it than any other so far, but if I lived in the great white North, I don’t think EV’s are really ready for that yet, I wouldn’t buy one. I believe if left outside and cold soaked the range can almost be cut in half, depending a lot on how cold your willing to be, and I do NOT do well in cold myself, I’m not willing to sit in the cold so my car has enough range to get to work and back or wherever.

Batteries don’t like extreme heat either, and passively cooled batteries like the Prius and leaf really don’t like it, it shortens their lifespan

However for a Florida or I assume California car they work really well, batteries seem to like the same temperature range people do

https://www.greencars.com/post/how-cold-weather-affects-electric-cars

Edited April 20, 2022 by A64Pilot

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

21 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You don’t buy a Mooney to save money either, or do You? I think many of us that fly Mooney’s do so to save money

No, I bought a Mooney to, mostly, save time.

[A64Pilot]

6 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

No, I bought a Mooney to, mostly, save time.

A Baron is faster, save more time

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Here is a possible electric aircraft:  https://www.fox21online.com/2022/04/18/poplar-pilot-developing-skypak-to-take-off-as-personal-propeller-driven-jetpack/

 

It reminds me of this: 

 

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

A Baron is faster, save more time

No baron is as fast as my Mooney!

buy an acclaim! 

[A64Pilot]

Well TBM then, or heck the Vision jet looks cool, wonder how it does on grass?

[MikeOH]

Just to continue this wacky thread’s creep:

Keep in mind that vegans love meat… it’s the plants they kill and eat!

[Hank]

Just now, MikeOH said:

Keep in mind that vegans love meat… it’s the plants they kill and eat!

I didn't kill this cow to eat it. It was sentenced for killing so many green plants.

      

[Schllc]

13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Well TBM then, or heck the Vision jet looks cool, wonder how it does on grass?

the vision jet may be the ugliest plane ever designed.  it looks like a big toe.

the TBM would be awesome, but multiplying my ownership expense by 5x doesn't really make sense for my mission, (or my wallet).

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Schllc said:

the vision jet may be the ugliest plane ever designed.  it looks like a big toe.

the TBM would be awesome, but multiplying my ownership expense by 5x doesn't really make sense for my mission, (or my wallet).

The Honda jet looks impressive, but there aren't enough of them to replace the Mooney fleet, not even all of the Long Bodies. To say nothing of acquisition and operating expenses . . . .

The Mooney is a great time saver, but it costs money to save time. Sometimes more money will save more time, it all depends on your needs, resources and travel distances. Then pick the best fit.

My Mooney is affordable, and there are airports usually within 10-15 minutes of my destinations where I can land. Vision or Honda jet, not so much. (I.e., the poorly surfaced, far from level 2770 x 40 runway that 4 miles from my mother; a possible alternate is a half hour away, but I don't know if it will take the jets--they may push me to GSP.)

[Mufflerbearing]

This just came up, the car shipping company that caught fire and sunk with a lot of Porsches, VWs, some Lambos and Bentleys, has made an announcement.  They will no longer ship cars that are battery driven.  They are blaming this fire on the full electric cars it was hauling.  This will put a kink in the delivery of these cars world wide.

Is this battery technology really something we want in our planes?  A fire that cannot be put out?

As an option, I would prefer to see ICE engines run by Hydrogen than battery cars/planes.  There is more hydrogen in the galaxy than any other element.  Now just to capture/manufacture it on board.  It's only byproduct is H2O. 

[Fly Boomer]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:22 PM, A64Pilot said:

there is a several month wait if you want new, but used and your driving today.

At least on Carvana, exactly one model 3 and exactly one model Y as of this morning.

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

This just came up, the car shipping company that caught fire and sunk with a lot of Porsches, VWs, some Lambos and Bentleys, has made an announcement.  They will no longer ship cars that are battery driven.  They are blaming this fire on the full electric cars it was hauling.  This will put a kink in the delivery of these cars world wide.

Is this battery technology really something we want in our planes?  A fire that cannot be put out?

As an option, I would prefer to see ICE engines run by Hydrogen than battery cars/planes.  There is more hydrogen in the galaxy than any other element.  Now just to capture/manufacture it on board.  It's only byproduct is H2O. 

Hydrogen is indeed plentiful, and it burns readily. The Hindenburg clearly demonstrated the problem with hydrogen as a fuel. For vehicles to carry enough for a decent range, the fuel tank will be pressurized, meaning that flammable fuel can spew out under pressure, especially after road accidents. 

I don't want that for my car, and I certainly don't want that in my airplane . . . .

Having fuel leak out would be much worse than a leaking oxygen fitting.

[A64Pilot]

55 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

At least on Carvana, exactly one model 3 and exactly one model Y as of this morning.

1. Used, yes there are several, but look at the price compared to new, the wait is for new not used. A one or two year old model 3’s asking price is same as new pretty much, I don’t know if Carvanna will haggle or not. I edited it to be only model 3, All Tesla was confusing 

https://www.carvana.com/cars/tesla-model-3?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sem_nb&utm_term=1&utm_campaign=14817593189&utm_content=122939779410&utm_target=kwd-464551378473&utm_creative=549043308644&utm_device=c&utm_adposition=&utm_rollup=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgYSTBhDKARIsAB8Kukvtgn5zwY740Yh7_fSBmmw1eUDqgt-xhtirJi6iIwsT9lXU_-kFuMEaAvGfEALw_wcB

2. Many, many more gasoline cars catch fire than EV’s but I’m sure if one does it’s likely going to be harder to put out, my guess is you may have to let it burn itself out. That’s for Li-ion only, Lifepo4 really won’t burn, but I think only Tesla standard range is Lifepo4

https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/

On edit, at first I thought of course there are many more ICE fires, ICE outnumbers EV by a whole lot, but it’s by 100,000 vehicles, not total

3. Hydrogen is a possible fuel, was researched heavily in the 70’s, at first look it seems to be an easy transition, simply take existing ICE vehicles and retrofit them with hydrogen, hydrogen isn’t anymore dangerous than gasoline, if the Hindenburg were full of gasoline fumes instead of hydrogen it wouldn’t have burned, it would have exploded, if the mixture was correct of course.

However if you want to use hydrogen a fuel cell will get you further than an ICE engine, the problem with hydrogen is where do you get it? Most say electrolyze water into its components, but the problem there is it’s far more efficient to use the electricity directly.

Japan is going into Hydrogen power pretty heavy and as we all know they are pretty good at Engineering so we will see what’s pans out, but Hydrogen is being pursued. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/japan-hydrogen-renewable-energy/

Pretty sure if you live in California you can drive an H2 powered Toyota, but it’s refueled at only a couple of stations.

4. The TBM comment or Vision Jet or any oil burner for that matter is pure tongue in cheek, a joke as either is way out of my price range, If you gave me one the operating costs would eat me alive, the definition of a white elephant.

Operating costs are actually what I’m extolling, operating costs of a Tesla are only a small fraction of a comparable ICE

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

At least on Carvana, exactly one model 3 and exactly one model Y as of this morning.

You know after giving a closer look I think your right, it seems all eleven pages of Model 3’s are sold and at prices higher than they were new

[mike_elliott]

[Kmac]

3 hours ago, Mufflerbearing said:

Is this battery technology really something we want in our planes?  A fire that cannot be put out?

The same could be said for gas.  How full are the gas tanks in the cars when shipped?  Was the battery pack fully charged?  Why wouldn't they ship with the battery depleted? 

I would be willing to fly an electric aircraft just as I am willing to sit next to 25 gallons of flammable liquid on my left and right while coursing beneath and in front of me.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Kmac

[PMcClure]

I come to this discussion late, but may have some input as a Tesla 3 (6 months) and Mooney owner. Actually, my wife is the Tesla 3 owner and I am only fortunate enough to drive it when she allows. Her BMW was rear ended and totaled. A replacement was more than 12 weeks out and very expensive. She ordered the Model 3 over the phone and picked it up 4 weeks later. I was a bit skeptical at first, but we have both taken to it and prefer to drive it on trips and local. 

Her stated reason in buying it was to "stop paying our enemies for oil" and using "American energy". But this was probably just a cover to justify a car she really wanted. But since having it, I can say, it costs about $0.04-0.05 per mile to drive and about 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of driving the BMW it replaced (direct costs only using current gas prices). Equivalent direct cost is about 100 mpg in the BMW for direct costs. 

Both home charging and trip charging has been very simple and intuitive. Advertised range is 350, but we probably get more like 300 due to speed and driving habits. My wife's nickname is Zippy for her driving style. We have several trips over 400 miles now. Most of her driving is in town and this car is perfect for that. Roadtrips are greatly simplified by using the Tesla superchargers. I am not sure I would own another brand without having the access to the superchargers. These two things (home charging and supercharging) are game changers. 

Acceleration and handling is better than any street legal car I have driven. Comfort is a B-. But better than the BMW. There is more interior room than the BMW for about the same size car but I find the Tesla seats too small and not very comfortable. My F250 is more comfortable (not fair comparison). Interesting, the adaptive cruise control is better in the F250 than the Tesla. We do not like the autopilot much. There is an upgrade for several hundred dollars a month. Not interested. The autopilot can be described as driving with a new teenage driver - nervous and constantly watching. 

What I do not understand is all the hate and misinformation about Tesla. They are good cars. Not perfect for everyone or everywhere, but a very good car and performance and range is impressive. I am an ICE guy - have more than a dozen ICE's under my care. But I really appreciate the advantages of the Tesla. I recall from my Thermodynamics classes 3 decades ago that ICE's are about 25-30% efficient. Depending on where you get your energy (Alabama is hydro, nuclear, gas and coal), it makes sense that emissions would be less from an electric car, but I have yet to see a fair calculation. The Tesla is not a "cheap" car, but it was cheaper than the BMW and so far is a better car and cheaper to drive than the BMW. 

I don't see how the Tesla model could translate to a Mooney type aircraft for now. The car is very heavy and planes have to propel and lift the aircraft. Turbines are probably a much better weight to power ratio.  

 

[A64Pilot]

Even before EV’s I’ve always thought that in today’s legal reality if you proposed a gasoline vehicle people would think you insane, 1/4 cup of gasoline is equal to one stick of dynamite? Your proposing driving around with hundreds of cups of gasoline? Oh , the horror.

I can attest that a FAE (fuel air explosive) is a really powerful thing, but obviously the explosive danger of gas is manageable as is a battery, you either believe in technology or you don’t.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

I would be willing to fly an electric aircraft just as I am willing to sit next to 25 gallons of flammable liquid on my left and right while coursing beneath and in front of me.

I'm also willing to fly an electric airplane. Just not me, one pax and 20 lb of baggage for 150 nm, then land and spend 45 minutes charging tomgo the next 100 nm . . . Repeating until I either reach my destination or stop for the night.

2 hours ago, Kmac said:

The same could be said for gas.  How full are the gas tanks in the cars when shipped?  Was the battery pack fully charged?  Why wouldn't they ship with the battery depleted? 

It's difficult to load 1000 cars onto a ship when you can't drive them in. It's also difficult to unload them when you can't drive them out.

There's good history of partially fueled gas-powered vehicles not catching fire in the cargo hold. Sadly, there IS history of electric cars and other devices catching fire while not in use or charging--see 777 battery fires in flight; the many early Samsung Notes that burst into flames in their owner's pockets and their subsequent ban from the airlines; and the fact that you cannot travel with a charged LiPo battery in your checked bag but only in your carry-on, where the fire will be noticed and can be extinguished in flight.

Electric vehicles--more work needed. "Not ready for prime time." Electric airplanes? They are just toys at this time. 

[A64Pilot]

Hank, you just won’t face facts will you?

Your stuck in the past, the future is coming.

I don’t believe electric aircraft are close though, not viable ones anyway, but lots of people are putting shed loads of money into VTOL intercity taxis and I think they aren’t even close to being viable either, but who knows. I think there will be shed loads of money lost in VTOL taxis myself.

But performance wise an EV will simply slaughter an ICE vehicle, any street legal one, and as a performance enthusiast, to me that means ICE sedans are a thing of the past, it’s over.

Edited April 22, 2022 by A64Pilot

[mike_elliott]

Teslas 1st qtr report says it all.

 

https:\\ir.tesla.com