Ppl in a Mooney?!?

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, cwaters said:

30K/yr really???? I've never heard of insurance reaching that high even for 0 time. Am I under a rock or is this a typo with an extra "0" ?

Nope, A new Ultra owner didnt have his PPL 3 years ago and it was a bit more than that. I am currently working with a 17 YO getting his PPL in an Acclaim who is on the hunt for insurance less than 30K so he can go solo.

Maybe it would be less if the hull value was reduced to 50K, but thats not the real risk...

[larrynimmo]

I bought the 81 M20J before I started lessons.   Except I did learn to fly in the 1970’s but gave up for several reasons.

I took lessons and soloed in a warrior…then the rest of my flight training was in the Mooney….paid 65k…insurance was $2,750…

that was back in 2017 a year after my wife died.  In the next year I fixed up the plane, valued at 135k (but actually spent 100k in upgrades…after I got my license insurance went down to 2k…while everyone’s rates went up, my premium stayed at 2k because I got my instrument ticket…that’s where I am today with over 800 hours

[Utah20Gflyer]

Buying a plane is a lot of work and owning a plane can be a lot of work.  Especially the first year or two.  I love owning my own plane and never want to go back to renting but the last year of ownership has not been conducive to working on my instrument rating.  I would say given all the factors rent for your private.  Then buy and do your instrument while you build hours in type.  

[carusoam]

Things that help…

1) Saving money isn’t the priority…

2) The plane being purchased is available now…

3) The plane being purchased doesn’t need any work….

4) The plane being purchased already has the avionics you want…

5) You already have used machine buying / selling experience… (a couple of used Tauruses over your lifetime doesn’t meet the spec here)

6) You have a spare cushion filled with Benjamins that your Finance Administrator doesn’t care about….

 

Things that hurt…
 

1) You think this will save a lot of money…  (check the big picture…. Of what this costs…)

2) You haven’t defined the plane you want yet…

3) Hard to look for a plane that isn’t defined…

4) You work a full time job…

5) You have family…

6) You haven’t solo’d yet…

 

When you don’t know what you don’t know…

Rent…
 

Get started…

If you are waiting…. Why?

Some people that have bought a much nicer plane…. Took a year to get it it home…

 

While you rent…

Define the plane you want to own….

1) What engine…

2) What airframe…

3) What instruments…

4) Where are you going to keep it…

5) inside or outside…

6) Does it have to look nice on the outside…

7) Does it have to look nice on the inside?

 

Remind me again…

How does the finance administrator feel about this aviation thing?

 

It is hard to buy a nice plane when you have two really young kids at home… and you are the only one in the family with flight experience…

I bought the worst M20C on the planet…. Under these conditions…. 

Things have improved every day since then…   

 

 

PP thoughts about buying the first Mooney…

Best regards,

-a-

[icurnmedic]

On 2/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, Jason walimaa said:

I have no experience. Only years of research. I would like to accomplish a decent cruise able to go on long trips. 1-2 passengers. Ifr rated plane. 
Your right to question. I don’t know why I want a Mooney. I may be better off in a Cherokee or piper. What do I know. I like how the Mooney’s fly. The Cessna seem sloppy, floaty, and slow. I like the small inputs and the precision of a Mooney. But then again what do I know. Harder to fly is not always a bad thing is it?

I personally was never in a Mooney prior to the introduction flight of 10 minutes before l bought  mine. Had around 120 hours in 2 172’s, but knew that I wanted more. Like you, years of reading, passed on a few,then the one I wanted came up.. Bought it before it was advertised. 
I sure like 140kts better than 105. It really does make a difference.

That being said, as others have pointed out, I would at minimum do 20-30 hours in a rental....

[Pete M]

I learned in my e model. As a full time cfi i would tell you Its a bad idea for a lot of reasons. You will not save money. Maint bills chew up your training funds. Any number of reasons could ground your new purchase. You will take twice as long. You may damage the airplane learning to land. Average pilot, you're looking at 60 to 100 hours before I'd let you solo. Having never flown or owned an airplane, you have no idea of whats involved. Do your ifr in the mooney, save the ppl for a 172.

Oh, forgot to mention, used airplane prices will come down 30% this year. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Pete M

[cwaters]

On 2/25/2022 at 5:17 PM, mike_elliott said:

Nope, A new Ultra owner didnt have his PPL 3 years ago and it was a bit more than that. I am currently working with a 17 YO getting his PPL in an Acclaim who is on the hunt for insurance less than 30K so he can go solo.

Maybe it would be less if the hull value was reduced to 50K, but thats not the real risk...

Ah so we have found the problem. I wish I had "getting ppl in an Ultra/Acclaim" money or even Acclaim money when I was 17. heck that insurance bill is what I've budgeted for a panel upgrade 

[Browncbr1]

Yes, but solo a trainer first, then switch to the mooney.  However, you shouldn’t do this with just any cfi.   You need a mooney CFI.   Insurance will cost you, but you can get your ppl check ride in roughly the same total time because you should already have the basics if you’ve been turned loose for first solo.   Your transition time and complex endorsement will be captured in the required ppl time, so that is saving down the road.  
 

there is a certain amount of learning primacy that will come with doing your initial ppl training in a mooney that should translate to lower risk of gear up landing and a few other things.  
 

if a CFI can’t get you to check ride in less than 60 hours, then they probably haven’t figured out your most effective method of learning very well and didn’t properly motivate and leverage those traits.  (Assuming training is being conducted from an un-towered field, and no maintenance issues to interrupt training, issuing mid or short body models)

Edited February 28, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Pete M]

12 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

if a CFI can’t get you to check ride in less than 60 hours, then they probably haven’t figured out your most effective method of learning very well and didn’t properly motivate and leverage those traits.

That's, um, disingenuous at best. Would make a nice blurb on atp's marketing brochure though. I've flown with many dozens if not hundreds of students. Some are ready in 50 something hours, some take well over a hundred, and by well, I mean 200+. Same instructor, same methods. The psychology of the student and their aviation processing abilities dictate their rate of development. I've flown with recent ppl achievers who have no business being alone in an airplane. Passing a ppl checkride is a small piece of it. 

Not sure why training at a towered field would make much if any difference. I've taught out of both. If my student isnt comfortable flying into a towered field they dont solo. Towered ops are part of the solo far, are they not? My boss came to me recently and told me my average for student completions is significantly lower than they've ever had, and they've been in business for 40 years. I thought he was mad. Revenue thing:) The owner of the airport sent his daughter to me because she was stuck and he knew i'd get it done. I know of which I speak. Average student, in a mooney, safe in 60 hours? Not likely. You want to quantify the risk involved? Look at the insurance premiums. Thats their job. Thats what they do all day long. That will tell you all you need to know. One of my students is buying an f. Cant get insurance at any price...yes, i called parker:) I've trained people to engage in high risk activities for 35  years. Training people in higher performance airplanes doesnt make better pilots, it makes worse ones. I'd train people in a j-3 if i could. The fundamentals get lost and they spend so much time behind the plane it creates an out of control feeling and fear. Remember "effect"? Fear kills pilots, plain and simple. The reasons against it go on and on...damn, I really didnt want to write a book about this...

[carusoam]

Towered airports can have some awfully long wait times….

Did my IR at KMMU…

Flying after work hours…

Morristown gets busy with business travel….

Easy to add 15minutes of taxiing and waiting at busy airports…

We often departed VFR to skip some of the wait…

 

Fast track… low cost…

1) trainer at an untowered field…

2) train multiple times per week…

 

Full track…

1) Long Body at a towered field…

2) Don’t skip the untowered experience… it is very important to have both…

 

Skipping lessons, or spreading them out over time… loses the ‘muscle memory’ you are trying to forge…   
 

The hour numbers keep adding up whether you get full value out of them or not…

Attempting to use the minimum number of training hours possible… requires one of two things…

1) Be super human, and be super focussed….

-or-

2) You already learned to fly in dad’s Mooney… but, didn’t log the time….  

Go Mooney!

-a-

 

[Browncbr1]

7 hours ago, Pete M said:

That's, um, disingenuous at best. Would make a nice blurb on atp's marketing brochure though. I've flown with many dozens if not hundreds of students. Some are ready in 50 something hours, some take well over a hundred, and by well, I mean 200+. Same instructor, same methods. The psychology of the student and their aviation processing abilities dictate their rate of development. I've flown with recent ppl achievers who have no business being alone in an airplane. Passing a ppl checkride is a small piece of it. 

Not sure why training at a towered field would make much if any difference. I've taught out of both. If my student isnt comfortable flying into a towered field they dont solo. Towered ops are part of the solo far, are they not? My boss came to me recently and told me my average for student completions is significantly lower than they've ever had, and they've been in business for 40 years. I thought he was mad. Revenue thing:) The owner of the airport sent his daughter to me because she was stuck and he knew i'd get it done. I know of which I speak. Average student, in a mooney, safe in 60 hours? Not likely. You want to quantify the risk involved? Look at the insurance premiums. Thats their job. Thats what they do all day long. That will tell you all you need to know. One of my students is buying an f. Cant get insurance at any price...yes, i called parker:) I've trained people to engage in high risk activities for 35  years. Training people in higher performance airplanes doesnt make better pilots, it makes worse ones. I'd train people in a j-3 if i could. The fundamentals get lost and they spend so much time behind the plane it creates an out of control feeling and fear. Remember "effect"? Fear kills pilots, plain and simple. The reasons against it go on and on...damn, I really didnt want to write a book about this...

Towered fields = longer time on ground and longer time in pattern = more time for each TOLD.   In my experience it nearly doubles the student’s hours for the same amount of progress.   Add the tower communications/solo block after short solo CC, and they usually breeze through it easily because they aren’t trying to learn all the other stuff also at the same time.  
 

you mentioned “same instructor, same methods”.  That’s what I mean….  Not all students learn efficiently by the same methods.   There are multiple learning styles that need different methods of instructing. 
examples:

• Right Brain/Left Brain
• Reflective/Impulsive
• Holistic/Serialist
• Dependent/Independent
• Auditory/Visual/Kinesthetic
• Superlinks
• Index of Learning Styles

@carusoam points out a huge factor that I forgot to mention.  And it relates to maintenance and flying schedule to drive concepts of recency, intensity, and exercise.    Also, need to schedule 2-3 lessons per week only about an hour flight time each.   Most students don’t have capacity to learn very much beyond about 45-60 minutes flying until later.  Short repetitions is better for retention than trying to cram and overload. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Towered fields = longer time on ground and longer time in pattern = more time for each TOLD.   In my experience it doubles the student’s rate of progress.

You lost me. How does spending more time with the engine running on the ground, combined with longer patterns yielding fewer takeoffs and landings per hour, increase a student's rate of learning and progress? 

[Browncbr1]

15 minutes ago, Hank said:

You lost me. How does spending more time with the engine running on the ground, combined with longer patterns yielding fewer takeoffs and landings per hour, increase a student's rate of learning and progress? 

Sorry, typo.   I corrected it.   I mean it nearly doubles the time.  

[Pete M]

3 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

There are multiple learning styles that need different methods of instructing. 
examples:

• Right Brain/Left Brain
• Reflective/Impulsive
• Holistic/Serialist
• Dependent/Independent
• Auditory/Visual/Kinesthetic
• Superlinks
• Index of Learning Styles

Good Lord:) So, you're going to id what type of learner he is, in 2 or 3 hours a week, while you're busy in an airplane and apply the "right" methods to his learning style? Ya gonna do a psyche screen? Maybe get a panel of shrinks together who likely wont agree on what kind of a learner he is. There's what you read in books, then there's the real world. It's not science. It's art. 

[Pete M]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Skipping lessons, or spreading them out over time… loses the ‘muscle memory’ you are trying to forge…   

You can minimize the loss or even make some progress by visualizing/chair flying:) For ifr, get in you're sim at home (you know, cause we all have one:))

Waitin' on ya to come back bud:)

[Browncbr1]

55 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Good Lord:) So, you're going to id what type of learner he is, in 2 or 3 hours a week, while you're busy in an airplane and apply the "right" methods to his learning style? Ya gonna do a psyche screen? Maybe get a panel of shrinks together who likely wont agree on what kind of a learner he is. There's what you read in books, then there's the real world. It's not science. It's art. 

not really, you gotta figure out who they are on the ground...  for example, if you take a left brain learner straight to the plane without step by step detailed review and reading before flying, you've wasted their flight time.   Opposite, if you go through all of the detailed step by step review and reading before flying with a right brainer, then you've wasted some of their ground time.  This doesn't mean you refrain from chatting a few bullet points... It's just that left brain learns best from words, facts, sequencing and the right brain learns better on the fly non-verbal, visualizing, feeling cues.. (art)..    it's a completely different approach and easy to figure out with a simple question to the student.   I gave primary instruction to a father and daughter once.  The father was right brain and the daughter was left brain.  it's two completely different approaches.   If you teach them the same way, one student will advance and the other will not progress. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Pete M]

8 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

not really, you gotta figure out who they are on the ground...  for example, if you take a left brain learner straight to the plane without step by step detailed review and reading before flying, you've wasted their flight time.   Opposite, if you go through all of the detailed step by step review and reading before flying with a right brainer, then you've wasted some of their ground time.  This doesn't mean you refrain from chatting a few bullet points... It's just that left brain learns best from words, facts, sequencing and the right brain learns better on the fly non-verbal, visualizing, feeling cues.. (art)..    it's a completely different approach...  I gave primary instruction to a father and daughter once.  The father was right brain and the daughter was left brain.  it's two completely different approaches.   If you teach them the same way, one student will advance and the other will not progress. 

Ya know, ya gotta do what works for you and your students. If it helps you to put labels on things i'm certainly not gonna tell you you're wrong. I would submit that it would be better if both students did some reading before flying regardless of brain type. Its just that some will and some wont. Highly analytical people will draw you into long discussions about details they dont really understand and will lose themselves in it. It doesnt help, it just confuses things and they confuse themselves. I don't take the bait. It's never a bad idea to get into an airplane early on, extensive discussion or not. Lets actually see what we're talking about. Flying is always big picture first, details later. There is a proper way to think about flying. I teach that, regardless of brain type or any other psycho babble that people make money with by selling books. I'm not saying there isnt some value there but its a rabbit hole that leads to diminishing returns.

[RobertGary1]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:53 AM, Pete M said:

I learned in my e model. As a full time cfi i would tell you Its a bad idea for a lot of reasons. You will not save money. Maint bills chew up your training funds. Any number of reasons could ground your new purchase. You will take twice as long. You may damage the airplane learning to land. Average pilot, you're looking at 60 to 100 hours before I'd let you solo. Having never flown or owned an airplane, you have no idea of whats involved. Do your ifr in the mooney, save the ppl for a 172.

Oh, forgot to mention, used airplane prices will come down 30% this year. 

I’ve signed a few people off for their private in their mooneys and this was not my experience. 

[WaynePierce]

I'm in the school of learning to land in a rental or go out and purchase a C or a P. Get your bad landing in these then your bad landings in your Mooney won't be nearly as bad. You will have bad landing while you are learning the 172/52 or even the PA 28 are built for those landings, your Mooney... not so much.

Since you are new to this, I would argue NOT to buy a Mooney for you PPL. Believe it or not, you may find that you don't like flying, or your inner ear doesn't like flying. Don't dive in the water until you've waded around where you're going to dive to make sure you don't break your neck.

[carusoam]

Important to find out if you like flying or not…. As early as possible…  

Figure out what type of flying you are going to do… as you learn more about what types of flying there are available to you…

Know what type of learner you are… (because we have all learned what works best for us may be different for somebody else…)

 

Fire up the desktop PC… get the MSFT… study the brief lessons by that CFI / comedian…. 
Each real flying lesson has something similar on the PC version…

While you are at it… fly the Mooney that is in there as well… compare to the trainer… see which one makes sense to train in…

 

PP summary of some of the thoughts above… not a cfi…

Best regards,

-a-

[Jason walimaa]

I love to fly. No question there. First plane trip in little jet is what hooked me years ago. I’ve done the flight sim thing to the fullest extent. Less glass cockpit and motion. Don’t take that as “I fly on a sim so I’m a real pilot” far from it.
I’ve got the radio figured out. Instruments , controls, checklists,aerodynamics , weather, aeromedical… if been studying for 5 years. I get consistently get 90s on FAA practice tests. Time and  Money has held me back previous years but am finally in a position to take to the skies. 

I need to find a local community of airplane folk to get familiar with some airplanes. I’m close to KLZU and will probably train there. I don’t want to just show up and wonder around the airport like a wierdo. Actually that’s exactly what I want to do. 
 

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, Jason walimaa said:

I love to fly. No question there. First plane trip in little jet is what hooked me years ago. I’ve done the flight sim thing to the fullest extent. Less glass cockpit and motion. Don’t take that as “I fly on a sim so I’m a real pilot” far from it.
I’ve got the radio figured out. Instruments , controls, checklists,aerodynamics , weather, aeromedical… if been studying for 5 years. I get consistently get 90s on FAA practice tests. Time and  Money has held me back previous years but am finally in a position to take to the skies. 

I need to find a local community of airplane folk to get familiar with some airplanes. I’m close to KLZU and will probably train there. I don’t want to just show up and wonder around the airport like a wierdo. Actually that’s exactly what I want to do. 
 

Winner! (Great pic, may need to be clicked on to see)

Non-towered fields are good for walking around… (carefully)

Towered fields have been fenced off and behave more like Fort Knox…. 
 

Go find a flight instructor that you can learn from… comfort is everything…

 

For training I used a company called American flyers… they have an interesting method of documenting your progress… have multiple instructors… and multiple planes that are all very similar….

This flexibility is really helpful for scheduling training…. Compared to a single CFI, and a single plane, and crummy weather, and a heavy work schedule…. 
 

Specifically, I used AF for the 10 day IFR course… and swapped out planes and CFIIs on a regular schedule…. Checking boxes off the completed task lists as we went… got to see how different people and different machines weren’t really a big challenge…

I See KLZU has an EAA chapter… the EAA folks are usually very welcoming to visitors and guests that are interested in flying….

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

My advice:  start flight training now. Visit the EAA chapter, they are good people and likely have several instructors. Start your airplane search, too, but prioritize completing your PPL. I "found" my Mooney at the XC stage of training, and wrote the check five weeks after completing my PPL. Insurance is a bear the first year! All good since then. Good luck, and happy hunting!

[Mufflerbearing]

Thanks Anthony for the invite.  We have been out visiting the grandkids in Georgia. 

My experience was a little different than most.  I started learning how to fly years ago but took 25 years off because of life/injury.  So, I started up again with a huge break with a local flight school and a 175 taildragger.  While I was learning how to fly again, I constantly studied on this forum and identified what kind of Mooney I wanted.  Yes, I always wanted one, but which one?  With amazing guidance and opinions here, I identified what I wanted to fit my mission and lifestyle.  One day, another student ground looped my training plane and bent it.  Just then, I found my unicorn plane.  At that time, I paid my instructor to fly it home with me to Idaho from Michigan and finished, took my test, and promptly started my IFR in this plane.  It has been an amazing ride and I would do it all over again.  It's hard to beat this plane in speed and efficiency.  It flies like my Porsches drive.  Now that being said, I have since finished my taildragger endorsement in a Champ. Though it was incredibly painful to fly it anywhere as it is so slow, there was an amazing perspective I never got flying the Mooney.  I also think this made me a better overall pilot.

My suggestion is, go fly.  While you are beating up someone else's airplane, identify and locate the one that checks all of your boxes.  That way, when it shows up, you are ready to buy it.

[Justin Schmidt]

I bought my '75 M20F with about 20 hrs just before soloing in a Cherokee. Yes, insurance is an issue so I would get a quote first. Mine is a fairly well equipped bird with an Aspen and such so knew I wouldn't have to upgrade much. With that said had some downtime with some issues such as to starting vibrator. However, if you have the means and you are up for ownership, why not, long run will save you money and you will learn YOUR plane better and be a safer pilot.
Now to make some mad...I have seen many that are real opinionated on not doing it are either mad because a younger, less experience pilot can get a bird or some weird elitist that thinks only a high time pilot deserves a plane.