Panel phase II M20S - need opinions!

[Criticalcarecohen]

Hey braintrust,

Last year I stripped out the older malfunctioning Aspen and replaced it with 2x GI275's, added a GTN750xi. This year it's time for GFC500. I still have the E.I. RPM gauge from the eagle to screaming eagle STC, a JPI 700 and my AP is the older STEC 55 with the two annunciator panels in an impossible to see mounting at the bottom of the panel.

The shop is recommending to cut a new left half panel since the removal of the two annuciators combined with the removal of some of the vacuum instruments will leave a lot of holes. I'm fine with doing it but they recommend if I want to do an engine monitor, do it now with the new panel metal, so here's a question:

 

1. Has anyone used a GI275 Engine monitor as a primary instrument? My Moritz gauges are starting to go (digits dont light up, the fuel level digits are completely black at night, the factory RPM gauge is blocked due to the STC RPM increase). Does it have the blue EGT band? My shop is worried it won't be able to display all the alerts but to my knowledge it does because it's STC'd. Screen size could be an issue but I'm a sucker for staying in the same ecosystem and it would consolidate the upper factor gauges, the JPI and Tach on the left into one screen. 
2. JPI 900 series instead? 
3.  Add an advisory model to replace the JPI700 to something newer.
4. Skip the engine monitor part of this. 

Let the opinions fly! I've attached a pic of my panel for reference. Of note, my panel lights dont work (the background ones, not the glareshield) and so my ASI, backup altimeter etc dont light up at night. 

 

All the best,

AC

[David Lloyd]

I'm talking to a shop Monday about an engine monitor, GI275 EIS or JPI 900 and a new left panel.  The only feedback from the shop so far was small display for the 275.

[donkaye, MCFI]

I've had the EI MVP-50 since 2014 and the information it provides and the large character size make it my choice for an engine monitor.  While JPI makes good engine monitors, you need a magnifying glass to see some of the numbers on their units.  They also provide only a single page of information while the MVP-50 provides numerous pages.

[LANCECASPER]

If you're doing this on a budget and going to stick with round instrument in round holes and no huge PFD then I would stay with your current left panel. I haven't used the GI-275 EIS but it would fit in easily where your vacuum AI is. (In a previous Ovation and Bravo I used a JPI930 on the far left (pictures below), but it requires cutting a new panel, which adds time and expense, but as long as they give you the engine info I don't have any huge preference with one over the other.) Either way do not skip taking out the Moritz gauges - they will continue to fail and ground your airplane until you eventually take that step.

 

A couple of other thoughts. Pulling out the Moritz gauges you'll end up with them making a blank to fit in there at the top. Looking at your center stack, that huge Mooney annunciator is mostly going to go unused, certainly the bottom half for sure. Since you won't have vacuum your HO LO Vac lites on top won't be used. Whatever annunciator lights are needed could be put where the Moritz used to be and your number 2 radio could be moved to the center stack and you'd still have room for your GFC500 if you moved the prop de-ice. Personally I'd keep the Stormscope if it still works. But I'd think about a used Mid-Continent LifeSaver Gyro with slip/skid indicator (ball) to replace your turn coordinator (since that will sell with the STEC A/P) and independently back up your GI-275s with no chance of a software glitch causing loss of AI. You can blank off the 2-1/4" holes where the RPM and JPI are on the far left or you could add a panel mount CO detector in one and a USB charger in the other.

[StevenL757]

44 minutes ago, Criticalcarecohen said:

• Has anyone used a GI275 Engine monitor as a primary instrument? My Moritz gauges are starting to go (digits dont light up, the fuel level digits are completely black at night, the factory RPM gauge is blocked due to the STC RPM increase). Does it have the blue EGT band? My shop is worried it won't be able to display all the alerts but to my knowledge it does because it's STC'd. Screen size could be an issue but I'm a sucker for staying in the same ecosystem and it would consolidate the upper factor gauges, the JPI and Tach on the left into one screen. 
• JPI 900 series instead? 
•  Add an advisory model to replace the JPI700 to something newer.
• Skip the engine monitor part of this. 

My feedback on having done this four times...

• Skip the GI275 as an engine monitor and get either the MVP as @donkaye suggests or the JPI EDM930 (more real estate over the EDM900).
• Whether you wind up with the EI or JPI unit, lose the Moritz gauges, the EDM700, and the dedicated RPM above it, and rescue the panel space.
• Lastly, if you do GFC500, get the yaw damper option.  For a small additional cost in the grand scheme, you won't regret it.

Edited February 24, 2022 by StevenL757

[Ragsf15e]

Just another option… g3x 7” as an engine monitor.  Bigger and remain in Garmin architecture.

[Niko182]

I was going to recommend what @Ragsf15e said. Why not a 7inch G3X MFD with EIS. Or even a 10 in G3X with EIS and get rid of one of the 275's.

[Ragsf15e]

20 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I was going to recommend what @Ragsf15e said. Why not a 7inch G3X MFD with EIS. Or even a 10 in G3X with EIS and get rid of one of the 275's.

Yes, or save the $$ and just get a non-ahrs g3x 7” and use it as an eis.  That’s probably still more $$ than an edm-900 though.

[Will.iam]

12 hours ago, donkaye said:

I've had the EI MVP-50 since 2014 and the information it provides and the large character size make it my choice for an engine monitor.  While JPI makes good engine monitors, you need a magnifying glass to see some of the numbers on their units.  They also provide only a single page of information while the MVP-50 provides numerous pages.

Does the mvp-50 do the flip to top water fall of the egt gauges when finding peak EGT going to LOP operations? I flew with a neighbor in his 400 Comanche and was going to show him LOP operations but he had an Mvp-50 and I’m used to a jpi. The mvp-50 had more settings and configurations but i could not get it to show going into lop or get it to calulate the gami fuel spread but i think that was because my friends  fuel injectors were so horribly imbalanced that it couldn’t get to lop without already running rough. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard CCC!  Congrats on your first post!

Don’t wait as long for your second post!  

Kind of a summary…

1) The GI275 is a great data collector… but way too small of a display for a six cylinder, 7EGT system….

2) The JPI900 is a great old standard… but is on the near too small size… and it is getting older…

3) EI is a much better company to deal with… Their MVP is wonderful… See DK’s explanation above….

4) Big G does way more than engine monitoring… it is in the next level category of flight data / black box collecting kind of data….

5) Both JPI and EI monitors can collect some flight data when connected to a GPS…

6) If going all Garmin… a big screen might make a better choice….

 

A Screamin’ Eagle deserves the best… 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye, MCFI]

2 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Does the mvp-50 do the flip to top water fall of the egt gauges when finding peak EGT going to LOP operations? I flew with a neighbor in his 400 Comanche and was going to show him LOP operations but he had an Mvp-50 and I’m used to a jpi. The mvp-50 had more settings and configurations but i could not get it to show going into lop or get it to calulate the gami fuel spread but i think that was because my friends  fuel injectors were so horribly imbalanced that it couldn’t get to lop without already running rough. 

There is a LOP operation with the MVP-50.  I don't run my engine LOP.  You would first set up LOP, then slowly begin leaning.  As each cylinder peaks, a bar appears over that cylinder.  Note the FF.  As you slowly continue leaning, each cylinder will peak and show a bar over its EGT.  Per the manual, "After the last cylinder reaches peak EGT, the data provided in the top right portion of the display will show the “First” and “Last” cylinder to reach peak EGT and the current temperature below peak for each cylinder.  This is exactly the information needed to properly operated LOP."  It doesn't give the GAMI spread per se, but by noting the FF at the first and last peak you can easily figure it out.

As a flight instructor who sometimes takes my plane to the student, an extra register is provides on the fuel management screen which resets after each flight.  So fuel used on any flight can be seen without any calculations, while the other registers contains fuel remaining and fuel used since last fuel added.

Here's a summary of the unit.

MVP 50P - Glass Panel Engine Monitor - Overview - YouTube.webloc

[Will.iam]

Ok i did see the bar on 2 before the engine was too rough running to go any leaner. I told him he would benefit greatly with gami injectors to level out the fuel flow to each cylinder as right now #3 #4 are working way harder than the rest of the cylinders and even if he doesn’t decide to fly LOP with the improved  fuel leveling he will aslo see better fuel economy ROP as well just not as big of difference as LOP. 

[KSMooniac]

I still love my EDM 900 after 6+ years and would choose it again. Great product, reliable, and fits on the left side of a Mooney panel where engine instruments should be, IMO.

If/when I upgrade to a PFD, I will keep the 900 because I think the form factor and features are better than all of the others in the market.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[donkaye, MCFI]

I think 20 years from now you will wish you had gotten the MVP-50, since you would still be able to read it without a magnifying glass, Scott.

[donkaye, MCFI]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard CCC!  Congrats on your first post!

Don’t wait as long for your second post!  

Kind of a summary…

1) The GI275 is a great data collector… but way too small of a display for a six cylinder, 7EGT system….

2) The JPI900 is a great old standard… but is on the near too small size… and it is getting older…

3) EI is a much better company to deal with… Their MVP is wonderful… See DK’s explanation above….

4) Big G does way more than engine monitoring… it is in the next level category of flight data / black box collecting kind of data….

5) Both JPI and EI monitors can collect some flight data when connected to a GPS…

6) If going all Garmin… a big screen might make a better choice….

 

A Screamin’ Eagle deserves the best… 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

I've taught in several planes that had the Garmin EIS.  I think the characters are still too small, and the information provided does not compare with the MVF-50 in my opinion.  It can, however, provide real time date when interfaced with an iPad.  That would be a nice feature.  Too bad EI has not upgraded their unit to do that.

[KSMooniac]

I think 20 years from now you will wish you had gotten the MVP-50, since you would still be able to read it without a magnifying glass, Scott.

We'll see, Don! I'm already several years into bifocal/progressive contacts and it's working OK so far, but it is a legitimate concern for many. I like having all of the data (except the recording times) on the single page. It's a great unit.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[kortopates]

I am no youngster and i can read everything fine from my EDM-900 and from both right and left seat. I personally think the 900 is the best unit for our Mooney sized panels since as Scott mentioned, everything fits on one page and it size doesn’t force it being pushed far left or far right. i have mine in the ideal position IMO, right between the G500 and radio/gps stack which is fully within my scan already.

I am also not a fan of the Garmin EIS system, but eventually their going to catch up with JPI. But i do love how well they’re integrated and can log the data with each flight in my GP log book.


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[KB4]

Small display, but 275 will stream all Engine info real time to Garmin Pilot App not sure about FF. 

[Criticalcarecohen]

Thanks everyone!

 

Based on the discussion we've decided to eliminate the GI275 EIS. 

Flew up to TYS yesterday and I'm getting a quote on the following combos:

-G3x 10" with EIS and keep a 275 as the backup - this may be over budget seeing as we just did the dual 275's last summer.

-Garmin MFD only as EIS ( I wasn't aware you could have this separately of the main G3x/g500)

-JPI930 

I think @LANCECASPER hammered home the point of getting rid of the moritz gauges no matter what and I'm sold on that. Since we planned on a new piece of metal for the panel and the GFC500 already the crux will come to price vs availability (as we all know Garmin has stated some components may have 6 month+ lead times). I used the Garmin EIS/MFD in a bonanza the had in the shop and it was nice, plus it can show the map or traffic from the GTN. If it'll be months and months we'll go JPI regardless. 

One issue the shop was worried about is the replacement of the Mooney annunciator, they seemed very concerned that they had to keep it since it's a certified piece of equipment and has the gear annunciations, speed brakes, electric and fuel. The Garmin EIS should mirror these (I assume since I've seen the Garmin ovation demonstrator) but they weren't sure about the JPI. I asked just for a set of LED lights but that went down a rabbit hole of legality that I can't speak intelligently on, so if anyone has the experience and requirements I'm all ears. 

 

Thanks again everyone, Happy Mooney-ing to all. 

AC

 

[kortopates]

Don’t confuse G1000 with Garmin EIS - not the same functionality. EIS has fuel and electrical, but not the two gear lights, nor starter engaged nor alternate air nor speed brakes nor anything else. all those lights add up and IMO don’t look anywhere near as nice or modern as the mooney annunciator. Nor does the annunciator take up valuable space.

Personally I think the 930 is too big since it’ll typically be forced to far right or far left out of normal scan. I prefer the 900. But choice of monitor is purely personal preference. All the certified versions cover what you need.


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[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

Don’t confuse G1000 with Garmin EIS - not the same functionality. EIS has fuel and electrical, but not the two gear lights, nor starter engaged nor alternate air nor speed brakes nor anything else. all those lights add up and IMO don’t look anywhere near as nice or modern as the mooney annunciator. Nor does the annunciator take up valuable space.

Personally I think the 930 is too big since it’ll typically be forced to far right or far left out of normal scan. I prefer the 900. But choice of monitor is purely personal preference. All the certified versions cover what you need.


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In most cases I think a -930 is overkill and a 900 works just fine, however, the PO of my airplane put a -930 in on the right side and it’s been awesome.  Everyone that says it’s not readable over there needs to get their eyes checked.  A Mooney panel just isn’t that wide and it works perfectly.  Do I stare at it?  No, but it’s plenty easy to have it in the crosscheck.

The only thing I dislike about it also applies to the EI and -900.  It’s outside Garmin’s architecture, so if you have other Garmin avionics, don’t expect them to work well (or at all) together.  If you’re not using Garmin, both the -900 and-930 are awesome!

(and yes, for all you guys that zoom in and look at GS, that’s 211 knots at 10,500’ in a M-20F with an IO-360! )