Flying at MTOW

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

I’m not sure about short and mid bodies, but as I’ve toyed with the weight and balance, just for kicks, it’s always amazed me how hard it is to load a long body “out” of CG. 
It would appear you would have to intentionally do something for the condition to manifest, and even then it wouldn’t be easy.

 

My F is the same.  Very difficult to get too aft, not impossible to get too far forward but it has to be two “big” guys with no luggage.  Luckily I’m pretty skinny, so someone big enough to bring the cg forward won’t really fit in the seat.  Full luggage, wife in the back with a kid, kid next to me isn’t even close to aft limit.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/3/2022 at 2:12 AM, jaylw314 said:

 

AFAIK, above max weight flights are not unheard of for ferry flights with a ferry permit, and I think there's some kind of rule that allows for it in Alaska without a ferry permit

Back in the day the AK FSDO would issue a 10% overload pretty much for anyone asking, usually small 135 ops as 91 guys didn’t care and really weren’t monitored.

AK has always been easier for things like oversized tires etc, but I bet those days are gone.

You can even land on the Alcan and not even get a second look from people.

[V1VRV2]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:57 AM, A64Pilot said:

Back in the day the AK FSDO would issue a 10% overload pretty much for anyone asking, usually small 135 ops as 91 guys didn’t care and really weren’t monitored.

AK has always been easier for things like oversized tires etc, but I bet those days are gone.

You can even land on the Alcan and not even get a second look from people.

Not gone. It applies to 121 and 135 operators in AK and it’s 15% of  MGTOW. 

[Bartman]

Two things to add.  Most of my flights are cross country at or near 2740 so I know very well how the plane performs in both cold temps and low DA like today, and more importantly in July with high DA when temps are in the 90’s. Takeoff roll and climb performance are much different at these extremes. Despite having a 5,500ft runway at my home airport, one challenge we have is bumps beginning at about 1,000 feet at both ends and if your speed is just right it will launch into the air before she is ready to fly. Usually it can be recovered in ground effect but I have also brought the mains back to the runway to gain speed, and have aborted many times due to these bumps.  It is especially challenging when taking off IFR and low ceilings. I did that once, and never again. Be very cautious of a bumpy runway at max gross. 

The other thing is flying at max gross with 1 passenger while full of fuel and luggage is different than flying with 3 passengers and minimum fuel.  I am fully aware that I am the PIC and responsible for all souls onboard, and how an accident would affect much more than those in the aircraft. 

[rbp]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:35 AM, Z W said:

Those 5 knots can really make a difference

rule of thumb is you float 100ft down the runway per excess knot of airspeed. 

[rbp]

regarding CG, the further aft the CG, the faster the plane will fly at cruise. of course, stay within the envelope. Note that the aft CG limit is designed to allow the pilot to briskly push the elevator forward to break a stall/spin.

[A64Pilot]

17 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Not gone. It applies to 121 and 135 operators in AK and it’s 15% of  MGTOW. 

I stand corrected then.

Point being is AK flying is at least as “intense” as most flying in the lower 48, and being over grossed doesn’t have them falling out of the sky.

I maintain that flown by a knowledgeable and or well experienced pilot that overgross within logical limits isn’t necessarily unsafe, any more than driving a loaded truck is.

Do some Ag flying, it may change things

Edited January 8, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, rbp said:

regarding CG, the further aft the CG, the faster the plane will fly at cruise. of course, stay within the envelope. Note that the aft CG limit is designed to allow the pilot to briskly push the elevator forward to break a stall/spin.

Aft CG is often determined by control feedback, the further aft it gets, the less push back you get from the controls and of course the less stable the aircraft is, far enough back and you get to the stick force neutral point which is exactly what it sounds like, and further back  if you let go, the yoke will either go full up or full down.

Often to expand the envelope springs on the elevator control, weights or anti servo tabs on the elevator are used.

[WAFI]

5 hours ago, rbp said:

rule of thumb is you float 100ft down the runway per excess knot of airspeed. 

Nice little tidbit there, never heard that before but seems logical. 

Curious as to what your desired touchdown speed is with your M model? 

Also, just watching about every YouTube Mooney video out there. I hear a lot of stall horns at touchdown and they grease the landings for the most part. I have maybe heard my stall horn once on landing and another when I bounced and when around. It seems like a common thing. FYI it does work fine. 

[carusoam]

Simple differences…

Flying at MGTW vs. Over MGTW….

1) Our planes are nicely tested beyond the limits available in the POH…

2) This allows our planes to behave nicely within the limits documented in the POH….

3) As we move from the center of the WnB chart to the outer edges… flight characteristics change….

4) When the flight characteristics change, they are not linear….  And can vary pretty far from expectations…

5) Where we have seen these changes cause accidents…. Fully loaded planes on warm days… with short runways.

6) Warm days have an extra powerful problem… less power generated, less thrust efficiency, and lower lift characteristics….

7) These challenges lead to longer T/O distances, and lower climb rates…

8) Some POHs have very little data in them to use for accurate calculations…

9) Some pilots have a ton more experience in their plane, than a new pilot with an old POH….

10) Some pilots do a better job with engine diagnostics than others….

11) Make sure your plane is performing to book specifications… before using the performance data to make accurate calculations…

12) If you need convincing that flying a plane that doesn’t make book power is a bad idea… there is a YT video of an M20K for that…

13) Over weight and under powered have similar challenges…. Add changes to stall speed to the list above….

14) There are technical ways to fly over weight properly…. With definitions of what overweight actually means…

15) Ferry flights are a good example… of a proper way to fly the Mooney overweight…

16) ferry flights and flying with ice on your wings make for some uncomfortable moments….

17) If considering an impromptu flight in the overweight category…. We have pics of the five seat M20C around here… also a video on YT… the flight was incredibly short… through the fence, across the road, into a berm… 

18) It’s probably not proper etiquette to imply another pilot flies overweight in an impromptu fashion, often….

19) If you know somebody that is overloading his plane.…. You can always start a conversation about the current DA….  Hey Bob, any idea what the DA is currently? I just need to run a couple of calcs for my plane…   

 

Fun stuff… 

Low DAs cause a few other challenges… there are limits to MP that are good to follow…

PP thoughts only…

-a-

[carusoam]

26 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Nice little tidbit there, never heard that before but seems logical. 

Curious as to what your desired touchdown speed is with your M model? 

Also, just watching about every YouTube Mooney video out there. I hear a lot of stall horns at touchdown and they grease the landings for the most part. I have maybe heard my stall horn once on landing and another when I bounced and when around. It seems like a common thing. FYI it does work fine. 

Long Bodies are interesting…

Their POHs are extra long…

Lots of extra data…

To get a better feeling for landing and approach speeds and how weight effects the target speeds… add in flap positions and wind conditions…

Find DonKaye’s Mooney landing video and details…. Well worth the price.  All the details apply to all the Mooneys…. Don is an award winning CFII…

 

A quick answer to your question… desired speeds for long bodies are about 15% higher than the short and mid bodies…

The funny part… one is in mph, the other is in nmph…. The actual numbers will be quite close to one another… 

Find @donkaye’s website… it makes a great reference and may have a thing or two brought out from a different perspective….

The one difference that stands out… the weight and speeds are both higher… so the momentum to control gets much higher…

Being on speed is more important and only a touch more challenging… more to get used to.

Best regards,

-a-

[WAFI]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

A quick answer to your question… desired speeds for long bodies are about 15% higher than the short and mid bodies…

The funny part… one is in mph, the other is in nmph…. The actual numbers will be quite close to one another… 

Find @donkaye’s website… it makes a great reference and may have a thing or two brought out from a different perspective….

The one difference that stands out… the weight and speeds are both higher… so the momentum to control gets much higher…

Being on speed is more important and only a touch more challenging… more to get used to.

Best regards,

-a-

Interesting... I take a look when I get back to the US from St. Barts, for some reason certain websites don't load down here. Even with a VPN

http://www.donkaye.com

[carusoam]

Just now, WAFI said:

Interesting... I take a look when I get back to the US from St. Barts, form some reason certain websites don't load down here. Even with a VPN

http://www.donkaye.com

Send pics from the beach!

I’ll trade pics from snowy NJ.

-a-

[WAFI]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Send pics from the beach!

I’ll trade pics from snowy NJ.

-a-

Office view taken 30 seconds ago, just for you. LOL

[WAFI]

I lied, I'm sitting off St. Maarten right now. Back to St. Barts tomorrow. 

The funny part is I'm itching to fly to snow in about two weeks. 

[carusoam]

I call this art… ‘sunset in NJ’.  
 

-a-

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, WAFI said:

Also, just watching about every YouTube Mooney video out there. I hear a lot of stall horns at touchdown and they grease the landings for the most part. I have maybe heard my stall horn once on landing and another when I bounced and when around. It seems like a common thing. FYI it does work fine. 

For I guess about 15 years I did production test flights for a manufacturer, one of the checks was to ensure the stall warning enunciated between 5 to 10 mph prior to stall, so even on a factory new airplane there was a 5 mph allowable difference, so it’s very likely yours enunciates closer to stall than the average.

I’ve not looked on a Mooney but the average airplane the stall warning is very easy to adjust, usually with one screw on each side, loosen the screws and slide the assembly up or down, but on most do not be tempted to bend the blade.

Personally I wouldn’t bother though I’m sure your used to the way it is.

[carusoam]

Signs of a well executed landing….

All or most of the energy gets bled off in ground effect…

As the plane slows, the AOA increases, the wheels touch at/near full stall… hence the stall horn announcing the arrival…

 

before relying on the stall horn to work… it helps to get it to sound during slow flight at altitude first…

It also gets a preflight test… add it to the check list…

 

There are many MSer YTers…. @201er has a couple of good landing videos and angle of attack indicator AOAi discussions…

Extra points are awarded when the nose wheel touches the centerline… 

 

Fly often… things get more precise with recent experience…

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

-a-