De-icing an iced-up Mooney

[JamesMooney]

Here’s one for the cold weather experts to weigh in on. I’ve had our Mooney in Toronto for two weeks visiting family. Returning to US next Tuesday. It’s been on the ramp (only option available). On the warmer days, I’ve gone and brushed the snow and moisture off. But today it has a good layer of ice on the wings and tail. 
The local airport does not have heated hangar space. They do have cold / unheated hangars. 
The forecast for the next 5 days is below freezing most days and nights. Forecast (in Celsius) pasted below.
Obviously I want an ice free Mooney on Tuesday morning. 
Would putting it in an unheated hangar for two nights, even when outside temps are below zero, be enough to cause any existing ice to melt off? (Probably not?)
What would you all do?

(PS I’m not as concerned about the engine being cold - I’ve got an engine heater/Reiff XP and will be giving it 12+ hours heat to the cylinders and oil before we go. They’ll be nice and toasty. The concern is the ice on airframe.)

[Brandt]

Here’s one for the cold weather experts to weigh in on. I’ve had our Mooney in Toronto for two weeks visiting family. Returning to US next Tuesday. It’s been on the ramp (only option available). On the warmer days, I’ve gone and brushed the snow and moisture off. But today it has a good layer of ice on the wings and tail. 
The local airport does not have heated hangar space. They do have cold / unheated hangars. 
The forecast for the next 5 days is below freezing most days and nights. Forecast (in Celsius) pasted below.
Obviously I want an ice free Mooney on Tuesday morning. 
Would putting it in an unheated hangar for two nights, even when outside temps are below zero, be enough to cause any existing ice to melt off? (Probably not?)
What would you all do?
(PS I’m not as concerned about the engine being cold - I’ve got an engine heater/Reiff XP and will be giving it 12+ hours heat to the cylinders and oil before we go. They’ll be nice and toasty. The concern is the ice on airframe.)

I’m thinking a trunkload of windshield deicer from the local auto parts store might do the trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[201er]

If it's that cold, why would there be ice? Ice usually forms when it snows, gets warm and starts melting, and then gets super cold and freezes on. If it just snows and stays below freezing, it brushes or blows right off.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you put it in an un-heated hangar, get a kerosene heater, the ones that look like a jet engine, and use it to warm up the hangar and melt the ice. Most of the ice comes from snow, dew and frost, which will be greatly reduced in a hangar. It is possible that the heat from the Tanis will keep the hangar slightly above freezing.

Back in the 80s when I used to fly daily in the winter with the airplane on the ramp, out of Denver, I would use a brush to get the snow and frost off and if there was any ice, I would give it a sharp bump with the side of my fist, this would flex the skin enough to crack the ice so it could be brushed off. It never damaged the skin or the paint. 

One other word of advice, when parked on the ramp in the winter, always leave one prop blade pointing down. This lets the water drain out when the spinner gets full of snow and then melts during the day . If it can't drain out, it will form a solid block of ice in the spinner that you cannot easily see that will shake the engine severely when you start it.

Edited December 30, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[JamesMooney]

10 minutes ago, 201er said:

If it's that cold, why would there be ice? Ice usually forms when it snows, gets warm and starts melting, and then gets super cold and freezes on. If it just snows and stays below freezing, it brushes or blows right off.

There’s ice because the temps keep fluctuating between a little above and a little below freezing. Yesterday the airplane was dry and clean. There was drizzle mixed with light snow (DZ -SN) with temps right at freezing. The moisture on the plane then froze over night when the temps dropped further. 
That’s my problem… the forecast for next few days hovers at/above freezing with precipitation forecast, and then cold overnights.

[ohdub]

Several days in an unheated hangar and there a chance what's on it will come off, it will at least prevent more from accumulating. As @N201MKTurbo  said, bumping the ice with your fist cracks it and it will fall off. 

From the picture, it looks like you are at Buttonville, you could probably get Million Air to spray it with Type 1, but I'm sure that wouldn't be cheap.

[Yourpilotincommand]

When it is that cold I would never start/run the engine. There is a lot of friction happening before the oil can begin to lubricate.  It’ll definitely shorten the life of the engine. Any temps below 30 degF I would get a heated hangar or an oil dipstick heater with an extension cord or even a hair dryer. I like the windsheild wiper fluid idea for de icing the wings

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

When it is that cold I would never start/run the engine. There is a lot of friction happening before the oil can begin to lubricate.  It’ll definitely shorten the life of the engine. Any temps below 30 degF I would get a heated hangar or an oil dipstick heater with an extension cord or even a hair dryer. I like the windsheild wiper fluid idea for de icing the wings

 

41 minutes ago, FlyingCanuck said:

(PS I’m not as concerned about the engine being cold - I’ve got an engine heater/Reiff XP and will be giving it 12+ hours heat to the cylinders and oil before we go. They’ll be nice and toasty. The concern is the ice on airframe.)

Fortunately the OP has good engine heat.

Never having kept my Mooney outdoors in weather like this, I can but opine that putting it in a hangar will at least keep more crud from accumulating. Can you leave it in the sun while shaded by the hangar? That will let stuff melt off.

Hope you have good flying weather for your trip home!

[JamesMooney]

7 minutes ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

When it is that cold I would never start/run the engine. There is a lot of friction happening before the oil can begin to lubricate.  It’ll definitely shorten the life of the engine. Any temps below 30 degF I would get a heated hangar or an oil dipstick heater with an extension cord or even a hair dryer. I like the windsheild wiper fluid idea for de icing the wings

Totally agree - which is why I had a Reif XP engine & oil heater installed. With 12 hours of heat from it, even at 20 F ambient, I get the cylinders and oil up to around 110-125F. It was one of the best 1AMU investments.

[PeteMc]

If you're in the hangar for 5 days there's a good chance the ice will come off.  Between your engine heater putting off some heat, some sublimation and and on your daily check a few gentle whacks on the icy sections with your open hand to break up the ice without damaging the wings, I'm guessing it will come off.  

Heating would obviously be your best option, but if you can't...  If you still have ice the day before you leave, use a spray bottle filled with auto windshield cleaner/antifreeze should do the trick.  (I've never seen one with Ammonia, but check the ingredients.)  Go around the plane a couple of times spraying it on and give it a little time to work.  Then do your gentle whacks to see of you can break up the ice.  And be sure to dry off the wings wherever you sprayed.

Also, but sure to drop the flaps and check all the control surfaces to make sure they are not jammed up with ice.  Ice has a habit of getting in everywhere with the melting and refreezing you described.

Edited December 30, 2021 by PeteMc

[BravoWhiskey]

I've used this before.  Works well in my opinion although a little messy... use a spray bottle and go to town...

[N201MKTurbo]

Back in the day, I got a metal Hudson sprayer and soldered a 500W heater in it. I would fill it with 25% car antifreeze. I could boil the water in about 10 minutes. I would heat it up at home, then plug it back in at the airport for a few minutes. It would take the ice right off. I would clean off as much as I could with brush and rag and then hit it with the hot antifreeze. I could usually get it all clean in 15 minutes or so.

[JamesMooney]

1 minute ago, PeteMc said:

If you're in the hangar for 5 days there's a good chance the ice will come off.  Between your engine heater putting off some heat, some sublimation and and on your daily check a few gentle whacks on the icy sections with your open hand to break up the ice without damaging the wings, I'm guessing it will come off.  

Heating would obviously be your best option, but if you can't...  If you still have ice the day before you leave, use a spray bottle filled with auto windshield cleaner/antifreeze should do the trick.  (I've never seen one with Ammonia, but check the ingredients.)  Go around the plane a couple of times spraying it on and give it a little time to work.  Then do your gentle whacks to see of you can break up the ice.  And be sure to dry off the wings wherever you sprayed.

Also, but sure to drop the flaps and check all the control surfaces to make sure they are not jammed up with ice.  It has a habit of getting in everywhere with the melting and refreezing you described.

Thanks! Looks like it'll be more like 2 nights in an unheated hangar - but still, that and all the advice above should work.

Interesting research finding about the automotive windshield antifreeze - there's an FAA AC that prohibits using it, but an AOPA Air Safety Institute article that encourages using it. Go figure!

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_135-17.pdf (page 19)

https://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/Pilot-Resources/ASI/Safety-Briefs/SB02.pdf (page 2)

[A64Pilot]

13 minutes ago, BravoWhiskey said:

I've used this before.  Works well in my opinion although a little messy... use a spray bottle and go to town...

This is of course RV antifreeze, it’s cheap and usually Walmart or any RV store or West Marine has it, one big advantage of it is that it’s not toxic as it’s meant to treat drinking water systems, car anti-freeze however is usually toxic and tastes sweet so it can kill any dogs or other animals that happen to drink it, it’s also more expensive.

 

[PeteMc]

19 minutes ago, FlyingCanuck said:

there's an FAA AC that prohibits using it,

Nooo... Not Auto Antifreeze (as in the FAA reference)....   Just the windshield cleaner, or the stuff @BravoWhiskey posted the picture of.  I use that in our cabin every year and available at any auto shop.  If you don't see it when you walk in the door, ask them for "Mobile Home" or "RV" antifreeze (vs. straight auto radiator antifreeze).

One other thought if  you do still have ice and need to spray.  If you can, get whatever you use really warm.  I know that may not be real easy, but maybe keep it in the car right in front of the heater and only put smaller amounts in the spray bottle to do smaller sections. 

ADDED: And the point of wiping the wing off falls in with the FAA document.  The sprays we're talking about have not been tested at altitude and at the temps you may encounter.  Dry or not.  So you don't want the stuff locking up any moving parts.  Also why you need to confirm everything moves and is dry while you're in the hangar.   Once you're out, it's like any other day on the ramp with all it's winter pitfalls.

Edited December 30, 2021 by PeteMc

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

There’s ice because the temps keep fluctuating between a little above and a little below freezing. Yesterday the airplane was dry and clean. There was drizzle mixed with light snow (DZ -SN) with temps right at freezing. The moisture on the plane then froze over night when the temps dropped further. 
That’s my problem… the forecast for next few days hovers at/above freezing with precipitation forecast, and then cold overnights.

Ooooooh, I was looking at your forecast image and thought "holy smokes, that's chilly!  Why would there be ice?"   Didn't register to me that it was in Celsius, not Fahrenheit  

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, philip_g said:

Buy a gallon of TKS fluid and put it in a garden sprayer. I uses to carry same to spray my fiki plane down if it was frosted over. If it's thick ice I'm not sure there's much you can do other than oaybfk deice

That is what I do. Works great. I've even been caught without my garden sprayer and I ran the panels, wetted a towel with them and it worked on frost.

However, if the FBO has a de-ice truck, it would be money well spent to get a quick douche.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

That is what I do. Works great. I've even been caught without my garden sprayer and I ran the panels, wetted a towel with them and it worked on frost.

 

If you use warm tks fluid, say from a tank that sat on a heater vent inside for the night, and spray that on, I think you’ll be in good shape.

[jaylw314]

38 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you use warm tks fluid, say from a tank that sat on a heater vent inside for the night, and spray that on, I think you’ll be in good shape.

Can you microwave TKS fluid?  It might be easier and safer to just take a small microwave oven to the hangar

 

[Shadrach]

Presume your talking Celsius when you say “below zero”. If temps are are just around freezing, it won’t take a lot of energy to bring a small unheated hangar to an adequate temp to melt ice.  If you have power, an 1875W hairdryer can be had for under $20. Remove an inner access panel from the underside of each wing and heat the interior of each wing structure.  Tail can be done in short order from the outside.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Shadrach

[JamesMooney]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Presume your talking Celsius when you say “below zero”. If temps are are just around freezing, it won’t take a lot of energy to bring a small unheated hangar to an adequate temp to melt ice. If you have power,  an 1875W hairdryer can be had for under $20. Remove an inner access panel from the underside of each wing and heat the interior of each wing structure.  Tail can be done in short order from the outside.

Yep - Celsius for Canada on this trip. Back to Fahrenheit next week, we hope!
The hairdryer idea is a brilliant suggestion - since this is a trip to visit family (vs being at our home airport), I’m sure our in-laws would let us borrow their hair dryer (maybe not their Dyson hair dryer though -haha)

Hair dryer, extension cord, and a spray bottle of windshield fluid or RV antifreeze. I think we have a plan!

thanks!

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Presume your talking Celsius when you say “below zero”. If temps are are just around freezing, it won’t take a lot of energy to bring a small unheated hangar to an adequate temp to melt ice.  If you have power, an 1875W hairdryer can be had for under $20. Remove an inner access panel from the underside of each wing and heat the interior of each wing structure.  Tail can be done in short order from the outside.

AFAIK hair dryers aren't designed for continuous duty, there may be some meltage/burny involved if you leave it on too long.  Also outdoor water + indoor appliance may not be a great idea

I think most heat guns are rated for continuous duty, and provide similar power, 1650 watts for continuous duty.  They may not be waterproof but probably a little safer too  

Edited December 30, 2021 by jaylw314

[whiskytango]

6 hours ago, BravoWhiskey said:

I've used this before.  Works well in my opinion although a little messy... use a spray bottle and go to town...

I have used this ^^ with a garden sprayer when I was living Up North, and it worked well to melt ice. The one downside is that it leaves a pink residue on the paint. For that reason TKS fluid might be a better choice if it is available.

[exM20K]

I'm with @N201MKTurbo: Find a torpedo heater and blast it in the unheated hangar.  Shouldn't talk long.

Like @philip_g, I used to keep a garden sprayer handy when commuting to KBED for defrosting.  I do not think it will work very well on attached ice, however.

-dan

[GeeBee]

Usually, deice is charged by amount of fluid used, a Mooney does not use much unless it is really iced up.

7K to due even a heavily iced Lear, means someone does not know how to handle the nozzle.