Mooney down at KHEG (Jacksonville, FL)

[toto]

4 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Agreed.  You just don’t see “landing short” Mooney accidents. But you see plenty of runway overruns.  But this may be the exception.  My money is on that if this pilot repeatedly has ground speeds that low in the pattern.  Weird.  

Probably depends on what he was flying previously. If he’s been flying a light sport with a 50mph base to final, he might revert to that when he’s behind the airplane. 

[DCarlton]

Unlikely cause but is there any failure mode of an airspeed indicator that could cause it to read faster than actual ?  Mixing up knots and mph on your indicator can make a significant difference too down low and slow if you're unfamiliar.  You've gotta wonder where the stall warning horn was too or if it was chirping the entire flight.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by DCarlton

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Unlikely cause but is there any failure mode of an airspeed indicator that could cause it to read faster than actual ?  Mixing up knots and mph on your indicator can make a significant difference too down low and slow if you're unfamiliar.  

I suppose. If the static system is plugged the altimeter will stop working and the airspeed indicator will start working like an altimeter. It's indication will be a combination of airspeed and height above the pressure where it was plugged. The altimeter error would be more significant than the airspeed error. I have never flown with a clogged static port, but I have flown with a plugged pitot tube. Its kind of un-nerving. If it was a plugged static source, pulling the alt static knob would get you going again.

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

True

 

So what if it is plugged.  On take off you are firewall forward full power - any J model Mooney will have similar takeoff performance at near sea level elevation and that will show up in ADSB.  Who would throttle back and slow a plane down on takeoff in a climb?... 

This plane also may have been turbocharged by modification according to a 1994 NTSB report.  It references an STC but I can't find it in the FAA STC database.

Date Of Report	1994-09-06		Operator Control Number	94ZZZX5088
Date Of Occurrence	1994-07-29		Aircraft Registration	3707H
Aircraft Manufacturer	MOONEY		Aircraft Group Code	M20
Aircraft Manufacturer Model	M20J		Aircraft Make Model Sequence	5870219
Air Carrier Name	Unknown		Air Carrier Operation Code	DY1R
Operation Type	G		Stage Of Operation	INSP/MAINT
Severity Factor	UNCOMMON		Air Transport Association Code	Exhaust Turbocharger
Precautionary Procedures	NONE		Nature Of Condition	OTHER
Segment	AIRFRAME		Descriptive Name Of Part	SCROLL
Defective Location On Aircraft	TURBO EXH		Failed Part Condition	CRACKED
Part Total Time	455		Part Total Time Since Overhaul	0
Component Manufacturer	ROTOMASTER		Component Manufacturer Model	3AT6EE10J2
Component Manufacturer Number	223605		Manufacturer Part Number	60051004B
Ata Code
Remarks	DURING ANNUAL INSPECTION AND TAILPIPE REMOVAL, FOUND CRACK THROUGH TURBINE HOUSING APPROXIMATELY .25 INCH LONG IN AREA REFERENCED IN ROTORMASTER SL NR 29, FIGURE 2, VIEW 3. AD 82-27-03 DOES NOT APPLY TO THIS TURBINE HOUSING. THE ACCURACY OF THE EGT GAUGE IS UNKNOWN. AD 93-14-15 HAS NOT BEEN COMPLIED WITH. THIS TURBOCHARGER IS A MODIFICATION TO THIS ENGINE IAW STC SE 4757NM. RECOMMEND AN EGT GAUGE INSTALLATION WHOSE ACCURACY CAN BE CHECKED PERIODICALLY.

 

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgstc.nsf/0/7a41c5ce2a9e8ce185256cc2005a758e/$FILE/SE4757NM.pdf

 

I've never heard of this STC before. It has most of the components of the M20Turbos STC, but it just applies to an engine.

 

[skykrawler]

Here is an accident with a slow-flying Citation owner.....people do things.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/accidents-ntsb/accident-probe-behind-the-airplane/

 

[N201MKTurbo]

16 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I found it...It is by Aircraft Design Inc which is a Spokane based early Darwin Conrad company (who later formed Rocket Engineering)

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/0/7A41C5CE2A9E8CE185256CC2005A758E?OpenDocument

SE4757NM.pdf 106.36 kB · 1 download

Yes,

That was the link on my post. I found it, I have just never heard of it before. 

[Bartman]

I cannot imagine flying that slow and that low for that long a time, but this appears to be intentional.  I thought it was odd that Kathryn’s Report said the JSO homicide unit is investigating the crash. Is this a clue ?

JSOs homicide unit, NTSB, and the FAA are investigating this crash.

[Ragsf15e]

Have you guys looked at one of your own patterns on adsb just to make sure the speeds match up?  I’m just saying that sometimes adsb gets sketchy near the ground.  I try to fly 100mph dw, 90mph xwind, 80mph final in my F… with winds and adsb issues (especially if  the adsb is relying on atc radar), the speeds may look way different.

[Jim Peace]

Altitudes below the TA/TL will be off on flightaware if the local altimeter setting is not near standard. 

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Have you guys looked at one of your own patterns on adsb just to make sure the speeds match up?  I’m just saying that sometimes adsb gets sketchy near the ground.  I try to fly 100mph dw, 90mph xwind, 80mph final in my F… with winds and adsb issues (especially if  the adsb is relying on atc radar), the speeds may look way different.

I do the same, but in knots in my J.  Ads-B tracks are usually pretty accurate for me.  The was my last landing, back at KCOE.  Wind was 8knots direct xwind for 24.  I was indicating 80kts on final.  I’ve never seen anything as slow as what the accident airplane showed on the flight logs.  

[201er]

If the winds were significantly stronger than reported (or stronger aloft), you’d see very low ground speeds in one direction but super fast speeds in the other. For example 50 on final but then 110+ on downwind. But this is not the case. Reported speeds seem consistent with about a 5-10 knot headwind on final.

[Raptor05121]

13 hours ago, Bartman said:

I cannot imagine flying that slow and that low for that long a time, but this appears to be intentional.  I thought it was odd that Kathryn’s Report said the JSO homicide unit is investigating the crash. Is this a clue ?

JSOs homicide unit, NTSB, and the FAA are investigating this crash.

I'm not familiar with how JSO does things, but a few counties west, any accident involving death, a homicide unit (usually FHP's traffic homicide) responds because they are equipped to deal with processing remains, etc.

[Bill O'Brien]

I had a piper arrow with the same engine have similar problems.  It was out on a lease to a flight school.  I got a report of poor performance and when asked they said it climbed at like 250-300 Ft/Mn and was slow in cruise.  Turns out the camshaft was flat.  Being a constant speed, it still made take off RPM, mag checks were good.

The aircrafts degradation in performance happened in a fairly shot time span, but in no way was it this slow in cruise.

[WAFI]

1 hour ago, Bill O'Brien said:

I had a piper arrow with the same engine have similar problems.  It was out on a lease to a flight school.  I got a report of poor performance and when asked they said it climbed at like 250-300 Ft/Mn and was slow in cruise.  Turns out the camshaft was flat.  Being a constant speed, it still made take off RPM, mag checks were good.

The aircrafts degradation in performance happened in a fairly shot time span, but in no way was it this slow in cruise.

I had the exact same thing happen to me in flight school, Piper 161, it just was never able to climb and made only 2200rpm on the go. I did a 180 and asked the town if I could land downwind "winds calm" on the parallel runway and they approved. Mags check out before and after the flight. I reported the issues in detail and the school did there do diligence and had it checked out by a A&P. Two days later the plane crash near Orlando with two CFI's building time, both walked away clean.

[Phil Hinton]

They were my neighbors and the pilot was one of my closest friends! I was contemplating going with them but, decided to drive with their wives and we were all going to meet up for lunch. His bird just came out of annual and was having low compression on one of his cylinders but, was able to get 65psi out of it which is on the lower end so, he decided not to change it out yet. 

This has devastated us all beyond imagination and needless to say freaked me out!  Unfortunately, I think the engine wasn't producing power because of that cylinder and the landing gear may have been stuck in the up position as well just looking at the aftermath pictures.  Please keep their wives and family in your prayers. 

[Skates97]

17 minutes ago, Phil Hinton said:

They were my neighbors and the pilot was one of my closest friends! I was contemplating going with them but, decided to drive with their wives and we were all going to meet up for lunch. His bird just came out of annual and was having low compression on one of his cylinders but, was able to get 65psi out of it which is on the lower end so, he decided not to change it out yet. 

This has devastated us all beyond imagination and needless to say freaked me out!  Unfortunately, I think the engine wasn't producing power because of that cylinder and the landing gear may have been stuck in the up position as well just looking at the aftermath pictures.  Please keep their wives and family in your prayers. 

Phil,

I am sorry for the loss. Please reach out to @mike_elliott if you will through a PM with contact information. He heads up the Bill Gilliland Foundation.

https://www.mooneysummit.com/bill-gilliland-foundation

[Phil Hinton]

Thank you so, very much. I definitely will. 

[Bartman]

@Phil Hintonwe are all so sorry for what has happened. I have lost pilots I know, but not a neighbor and not someone I was going to fly with and decided otherwise. Prayers for all. 

[Frank B.]

Is this possible or an error with the media report or am I reading it wrong?

It looks like the planes owner, Sterling Silver Flyers of Missoula MT, lost another plane yesterday in San Diego County. A Lear 35. It appears to be the same LLC with the same exact address as the owners of the M20J. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/28/us/el-cajon-california-plane-crash/index.html

[kortopates]

Is this possible or an error with the media report or am I reading it wrong?
It looks like the planes owner, Sterling Silver Flyers of Missoula MT, lost another plane yesterday in San Diego County. A Lear 35. It appears to be the same LLC with the same exact address as the owners of the M20J. 
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/28/us/el-cajon-california-plane-crash/index.html

No, the Lear was owned by Med Jet LLC, and the registration history doesn’t show Sterling either.


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[Frank B.]

24 minutes ago, kortopates said:

No, the Lear was owned by Med Jet LLC, and the registration history doesn’t show Sterling either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That news article does state though that the Lear 35 was owned by Sterling Silver Flyers, LLC of Missoula MT doesn’t it?

 

[201er]

11 minutes ago, Frank B. said:

That news article does state though that the Lear 35 was owned by Sterling Silver Flyers, LLC of Missoula MT doesn’t it?

If the most trusted name in news said it, then whatever the FAA records show is probably wrong:

https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=N880Z

[Frank B.]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

If the most trusted name in news said it, then whatever the FAA records show is probably wrong:

https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=N880Z

FAA is always right …. Unless you ask Dan Gryder … right?

[mike_elliott]

Phil Hinton has reached out to me via a PM and I have put in a call to him to find out the spousal contact info. 

[Deb]

The preliminary NTSB report has been released https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104442/pdf.