Turbine Mooney

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, smwash02 said:

Like what Ford did with the Mustang? 

WHAAAAT?  MY CAR IS A FRAUD?!  ;-(

[Davidv]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

This topic sounds like a thought exercise on how to take a plane that is currently unprofitable to manufacture and unaffordable to purchase new by most and to make it more unaffordable to purchase, operate and maintain....and not pressurized and for not a lot of gain in speed.  That is some pretty pricy "starting noise".

I think that’s why you don’t see any for sale.  

[FlyWalt]

Has there been any progress on this project?

[M20F]

Just now, FlyWalt said:

Has there been any progress on this project?

https://www.tbm.aero/page/tbm960
 

[aviatoreb]

This is what would have been a Turbine Mooney.  M20 turbine. 

https://www.avweb.com/air-shows-events/mooney-rolls-royce-look-at-turbine-single/

with a Rolls Royce RR500 TP engine that was being designed for the project specifics which is an unpressurized, low power (on turbine scales) and low altitude (low on turbine scales here too - like mid teens optimized) engine.

That was 2008.  Clearly it never happened.  A shame since I think that could have been one of many directions to make Mooney stand out at a critical phase.  

The Mooney 301 in the 80s became a joint project to TB this the TBM M is for mooney.  And I don't know what happened with the joint venture but they broke up and TB keep the good stuff.  That also would been a good path toward continued success for Mooney the company.  

[M20F]

Turbine GA suffers from Vne and fuel weight until some real engineering magic happens it is just an oddity at best for people who like to spend $$.

[FlyWalt]

Having looked at a few of the Turbine Bonanzas, and their performance numbers, the chief advantage is the ability to get up high, very quickly. I will opt for a PA46 or TBM if I ever go turbine.

[A64Pilot]

22 minutes ago, M20F said:

Turbine GA suffers from Vne and fuel weight until some real engineering magic happens it is just an oddity at best for people who like to spend $$.

40 years ago the first turbine Ag plane was done by putting a PT-6 on a Thrush via STC, almost without exception people thought it stupid as the engine cost well more than the airframe, no way you could make money with that thing fuel burn and cost to purchase.

Within I’d guess 10 years or so the piston engine Ag plane was nearly dead and just about all Ag airplanes were turbine, and the OEM price for the engine alone is 40% of the cost to manufacture the airplane, add in prop and accessories on the engine and its 50%.

I’d guess the OEM price for a GA airplane piston engine is 10% or less the manufacturing cost.

My guess is GA turbine wise, the Cirrus Jet is it, First have to have real money to buy a new turbine, and if you have that kind of money the difference between say that Piper and the Cirrus isn’t that big a deal, and who wouldn’t rather have a Jet?

[toto]

9 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

40 years ago the first turbine Ag plane was done by putting a PT-6 on a Thrush via STC, almost without exception people thought it stupid as the engine cost well more than the airframe, no way you could make money with that thing fuel burn and cost to purchase.

Within I’d guess 10 years or so the piston engine Ag plane was nearly dead and just about all Ag airplanes were turbine, and the OEM price for the engine alone is 40% of the cost to manufacture the airplane, add in prop and accessories on the engine and its 50%.

I’d guess the OEM price for a GA airplane piston engine is 10% or less the manufacturing cost.

Reliability (and therefore, dispatch reliability) has to be a major factor there - and for any commercial use.  The PT-6 is an obscenely reliable engine.

[FlyWalt]

To be perfectly honest though, following my recent 5 month long engine overhaul nightmare which included:

1. Contintenal's non delivery of cylinders

2. Other companies not able to send us parts

3. Staffing issues causing a myriad of other delays at outsource shops

4. Rising prices that far exceed the price of inflation

And in addition to this, some scum bag shops such as a certain avionics shop in Griffin, Georgia that scared up my MT propeller with a tow bar and socked me with the bill......

I am SERIOUSLY considering pulling out of general aviation. If the industry players such as Continental can't support their customers, then why would we want to support them.

[M20F]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

40 years ago the first turbine Ag plane was done by putting a PT-6 on a Thrush via STC, almost without exception people thought it stupid as the engine cost well more than the airframe, no way you could make money with that thing fuel burn and cost to purchase.

Within I’d guess 10 years or so the piston engine Ag plane was nearly dead and just about all Ag airplanes were turbine, and the OEM price for the engine alone is 40% of the cost to manufacture the airplane, add in prop and accessories on the engine and its 50%.

I’d guess the OEM price for a GA airplane piston engine is 10% or less the manufacturing cost.

My guess is GA turbine wise, the Cirrus Jet is it, First have to have real money to buy a new turbine, and if you have that kind of money the difference between say that Piper and the Cirrus isn’t that big a deal, and who wouldn’t rather have a Jet?

Apples and pears.  Insane reliability and ability to lift weight.  It’s like comparing a Mustang to a John Deere. 

[M20F]

1 hour ago, FlyWalt said:

I am SERIOUSLY considering pulling out of general aviation. If the industry players such as Continental can't support their customers, then why would we want to support them.

Because seriously the customers response to Continental has been to sue them and everyone else in GA into the ground.  You confuse your own beliefs with that of the market.  Altruism has no place in a litigious society. 

[FlyWalt]

4 minutes ago, M20F said:

  Altruism has no place in a litigious society. 

This is a GREAT point. And I totally agree with you.

However, this is not about a litigious society. There is nothing worse than walking into a market, Aviation or otherwise,, spending your money to get said product or service and then having to fight and negotiate to get what you paid for.

Doing the right thing doesn't mean doing the easy thing. When a mall is populated with stores that get a bad reputation for stealing from their customers, who simply want to pay a fair price for products or services, all of the stores will suffer. Eventually that mall closes due to a lack of patronage.

The same will happen with General Aviation unless they fix their problems: Litigious society or not.

[A64Pilot]

Most of your complaints have to do with China shutting down, because that’s the supply chain problems in a nutshell, everything comes from China, even US made assemblies are made from Chinese components, nuts, bolts, washers, cotter pins, bearings etc are all Chinese manufactured. It’s not just chips.

Secondly your other complaint is primarily financial, whether you believe it or not, but a growing amount of GA services really doesn’t want to play with antique airplanes and people who can’t afford the costs, hence why they fall over backwards for the Bizjets and new aircraft crowd, often they get surprised because nobody will stick you on occasion like Ritchie will, but they roll out the carpet for a bizjet and some roll their eyes when I show up in my 81 J. I mean come on, who drives a 40 year old car?

You figure out who those are and simply avoid them.

By the way, look at who owns Continental, sign of the times.

[Will.iam]

55 minutes ago, FlyWalt said:

To be perfectly honest though, following my recent 5 month long engine overhaul nightmare which included:

1. Contintenal's non delivery of cylinders

2. Other companies not able to send us parts

3. Staffing issues causing a myriad of other delays at outsource shops

4. Rising prices that far exceed the price of inflation

And in addition to this, some scum bag shops such as a certain avionics shop in Griffin, Georgia that scared up my MT propeller with a tow bar and socked me with the bill......

I am SERIOUSLY considering pulling out of general aviation. If the industry players such as Continental can't support their customers, then why would we want to support them.

It’s not like i enjoy the support we get but turbine is out of my operating budget. And R-V would be nice but you are still stuck with lycoming or continental and my father’s Subaru auto engine did not work as well as a lycoming.  I don’t have the time or patience to build my own and I don’t trust enough the variations that other people would take to build one for me. So unless FAA ever grants a crossover from certified to experimental, I’m stuck with what we have. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Most of your complaints have to do with China shutting down, because that’s the supply chain problems in a nutshell, everything comes from China, even US made assemblies are made from Chinese components, nuts, bolts, washers, cotter pins, bearings etc are all Chinese manufactured. It’s not just chips.

Secondly your other complaint is primarily financial, whether you believe it or not, but a growing amount of GA services really doesn’t want to play with antique airplanes and people who can’t afford the costs, hence why they fall over backwards for the Bizjets and new aircraft crowd, often they get surprised because nobody will stick you on occasion like Ritchie will, but they roll out the carpet for a bizjet and some roll their eyes when I show up in my 81 J. I mean come on, who drives a 40 year old car?

You figure out who those are and simply avoid them.

By the way, look at who owns Continental, sign of the times.

I’d question wether the ownership of Continental has any effect on their delivery times.  Their engine parts are made in America, where I’m guessing just like Canada there simply aren’t enough people to do the work.  What smart young person would go into aviation when they could go work at Google and many other companies for loads more money with little to no risk.

I believe we will run out of maintainers sooner than airplanes needing maintenance.