Transitioning from a C model to long body, questions

[Hilbilly]

All

I am a current 76 M20C owner with about 250 hours on the C model. I am looking at buying an Ovation and I am planning on contacting one of the CFI's listed on MooneyFlyers for type specific instruction. (For further background I have 2000 hours TT, IFR and ME, my other ride is a 421B model.)

However I would like to ask what the difference in landing technique is for a long body. I imagine a stable approach, good use of nose up trim and attention to keeping the heavier nosewheel up in the flare. (I imagine it will have a heavier nosewheel feel due to the bigger engine and longer axis).

Anything else?

 

[StevenL757]

Welcome to the group.  Feel free to add a bit about your base/region, and/or mission goals/operating rhythm.  Your second paragraph comments are pretty much accurate...pitch/power balance, controlling the slope/glideslope, and judging proper flare are basics, and need more attention in the long-body Mooneys.  The airplane will tell you when it no longer wants to fly.  I suggest checking out Don Kaye's @donkaye page below for a good guide to transitioning into a Mooney for the first time as well as those transitioning from other models.

Your biggest differences in "C" vs. "R" model operation is maintenance.  The Ovation, TLS/Bravo, Eagle, and Acclaim are sharp departures from any earlier model, and their maintenance is something that needs top-notch attention...not necessarily from a problematic standpoint, but a more focused level of attention-to-detail in general.  PM me if you want to discuss further, and again, welcome.

Steve

[Hilbilly]

Steve 

Thanks for the info. Live and fly out of Central Alberta. My milk run is from CEH3 to CYZU, a 120nm trip twice a week.

I am looking at this Ovation: https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/196508717/1996-mooney-m20r-ovation-piston-single-aircraft

Planning a test flight tomorrow, this one has been maintained by a Canadian Mooney service centre, seems to have flown a lot and looking at the logs the previous owner did not skimp on maintenance.

Hilgard

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hilbilly

[Hilbilly]

Steve

If you don't mind could you run me through the procedure of verifying the TKS system's operation on the ground?

Hilgard

[midlifeflyer]

In terms of landing technique, the Ovation (at least the first Gen) sits much more nose high sitting in the ground. Between that and the high panel, you will lose the ability to see the runway over the nose and will need to use your peripheral vision, or what Jason Miller (The Finer Points) refers to as the "Lindbergh Reference"j to maintain runway position in the flare.

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

In terms of landing technique, the Ovation (at least the first Gen) sits much more nose high sitting in the ground. Between that and the high panel, you will lose the ability to see the runway over the nose and will need to use your peripheral vision, or what Jason Miller (The Finer Points) refers to as the "Lindbergh Reference"j to maintain runway position in the flare.

I don't find that to be the case.  With a nose up attitude of about 8° at touchdown you can and should see at least two centerline strips ahead.  If you don't, then you flared too much too soon.  It should never be necessary, and is in fact dangerous in my opinion, to look out the side window prior to touchdown.  You might not be on centerline and might be drifting.  I've flown and taught in all model Mooneys except the D and G and none of them have an obstructed view of the runway at touchdown if flared properly.

All Mooneys, and for that matter all airplanes, land the same if flown with a stabilized 3° glideslope and with the proper airspeed +/- 1 knot.

[StevenL757]

@Hilbilly, Same engine and prop combo as mine.  550N instead of a "G", and the 7498 prop instead of the 7693 DF-2.  Both exceptional features.  That engine *might* have a 2200-hour TBO instead of 2000.  Mine was a factory reman in mid-2014 with a 2200-hour TBO.  Not exactly sure when they started turning out engines with the higher TBO, but my understanding is that it happened sometime between 2013 and 2014.

It looks like a clean airplane.  Obviously get a good PPI if you plan on moving forward with this, to include any damage HX, whether it was hangared, and a list of the red and amber items that need to be (and are coming up on needing to be) actioned.

As far as testing TKS, the instructions are straightforward.  What I do...

• Roll it outside.  Try to test in no higher than 10C (50F) temps.  Colder is better, else, the fluid may not flow evenly to all surfaces.
• Make sure you have at least 4 or 5 gallons of TKS fluid in the aircraft.
• Switch to BAT1 in the cockpit.  Connect a 24V power supply to the aircraft's external power port on the left side (I like the "StartPac" option here: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/startpacpowersup.php but any decent/equivalent one will do).  Plug the power supply's black power cable into a 110V outlet.  You should hear a somewhat gentle "click/thunk" sound in the avionics bay/battery compartment as the relay engages.
• Turn on Master and Avionics/Radio Master.
• Start by running each of the two TKS windscreen pumps at least three cycles each (the switch is three-position, momentary-action in each direction...center is "Off".  I generally pack a few rolled up paper towels gently in front of the windshield spray bar to catch the spray.  Each windscreen cycle/test instance should deliver about 3 seconds of spray.  Make a note if either or both pumps don't do this.
• Run each of the two main pumps on Hi and Lo setting ("MAX" and "NORM") for about 3 or 4 minutes.  Take note of the flow from each wing/stabilizer surface, and the prop slinger ring.  If there are any dry spots after 5 minutes or so, make a note as to where they're located.  Note the flow from the vertical stabilizer also.
• I generally take the opportunity during monthly testing to clean the panels.  While the main pumps are running and panels are oozing fluid, use a blue Scotch-brite pad to go up and down along the chord line, cleaning bugs and crap off.
• When you've finished your cycles, shut all pumps off and power everything down.  Use a towel to gently wipe along the undersides of the panels as well as the vertical stabilizer.

If any panels fail to wet out, there is another process to follow which is described on here.  More on that if you want.

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Between that and the high panel, you will lose the ability to see the runway over the nose and will need to use your peripheral vision

I disagree.  If there are any forward view issues (which never found to be so), it is due to the longer cowling, not the panel.  My opinion and my experience

[Hilbilly]

Thanks for all the replies!

Steve

The engine was installed in April 2013, Date of Manufacture/rebuilt according to the logs was 1/15/2013, serial no 1007691. So perhaps this one still has a 2000hr TBO.

 

Hilgard

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Hilgard...

The IO550 got the extended TBO around 2012 or so...

Going from M20C to M20R is fun, and funny at the same time...

The R is similar to the C, just a little different in every way...

All the numbers you used in mph will be close to the new numbers in Kias...

Look forward to the flights with your Transition Trainer,  lots of review of things you already know... just deeper detail...

More weight, more power, more speed, more distance, more climb rate, more capabilities...

The difference between M20C and M20R... you get more Mooney...

Start reading the book... The M20C barely got a 100 page POH... The M20R POH is 300 fact filled pages of incredible detailed reading...   

I did this transition a decade ago... and still reading the book... I still read the M20C’s POH too...   

Take pictures!   Including a selfie with the giant grin... take your time... it lasts a pretty long time...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, donkaye said:

I don't find that to be the case.  With a nose up attitude of about 8° at touchdown you can and should see at least two centerline strips ahead.  If you don't, then you flared too much too soon.  It should never be necessary, and is in fact dangerous in my opinion, to look out the side window prior to touchdown.  You might not be on centerline and might be drifting.  I've flown and taught in all model Mooneys except the D and G and none of them have an obstructed view of the runway at touchdown if flared properly.

All Mooneys, and for that matter all airplanes, land the same if flown with a stabilized 3° glideslope and with the proper airspeed +/- 1 knot.

I guess it depends how tall your upper body is. It's what I found in my transition and fairly consistently since - that forcing a look at the runway resulted in a flat landing while treating it like a Cessna 182 resulted is a smooth landing on the mains. 

Before you say a basic technique is dangerous, I'd suggest viewing at least one of Jason's Lindbergh Reference videos. The name is his (the Spirit had no front window) but the technique itself is pretty common in aircraft with a nose high touchdown attitude, including many tailwheel aircraft. It is designed to maintain centerline and prevent drift.

[GeeBee]

I can't tell you the number of times I was asked to evaluate a student who was having trouble landing an airplane. Almost always as the flare started I watch their chin rise to see over the nose. One young lady actually was sitting on a phone book. When I removed the phone book and asked her to land using the periphery, she greased on 5 in a row. Peripheral vision can judge height much more readily than forward vision. It is the reason why most pilots grease a no landing light landing, because they are not fixated on the beam

From Kershner's  Student Pilot Manual

"Flying into the ground: This is generally caused by the pilot trying to look over the nose"

Going to peripheral has served me well. Even in wide bodies, I look to the periphery to ascertain landing height, not forward. I sometimes lose that discipline in the Mooney and it pays me back with a poor landing. Watch a guy in a sim without peripheral vision struggle to land an airplane he greases most of the time.

 

[Hilbilly]

Well it turns out the Ovation that I am looking at tomorrow was owned by a MSpacer: https://mooneyspace.com/profile/7770-borealone/

I have gone through the logbooks, it was maintained by a Mooney service centre for the last 8 years. They are the closest service centre near me 97nm, so I will likely just continue taking it there for maintenance, pending my inspection.

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

6 minutes ago, Hilbilly said:

Well it turns out the Ovation that I am looking at tomorrow was owned by a MSpacer: https://mooneyspace.com/profile/7770-borealone/

I have gone through the logbooks, it was maintained by a Mooney service centre for the last 8 years. They are the closest service centre near me 97nm, so I will likely just continue taking it there for maintenance, pending my inspection.

 

 

Super exciting!!  Have fun.

[Niko182]

I believe all long body moonies have the fully adjustable seats. For landing I bring my seat slightly up. That helps in my opinion.

[carusoam]

There are two people looking at Boreal’s plane...

It is Canadian registered if that helps any?

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

Share your thoughts, I'm interested in this plane too.  Probably makes more sense for you to buy this one since you'll keep it in Canada.  

[Hilbilly]

I looked at it today...

Will proceed to pre-buy pending some negotiations.

If you want my thoughts on the inspection and test flight you are welcome to pm me. I do not want to share that on an open forum.

Hilgard

Edited March 21, 2021 by Hilbilly