Prospective Mooney buyer in need of advice

[GeorgePerry]

Not all Mooney transactions are bad.  A little over a year ago, I sold my M20F to another Mooneyspace member.  He and I still stay in touch and about once a quarter, he tells me how happy he is with my old plane and how reliable it has proven to be.  (this makes me happy even though I miss my plane!)

It all started with how the plane was presented for sale.  I told him he could have the Mooney examined by any one he likes, I showed him an extensive list of reciepts (both preventive, scheduled and unscheduled maint) along with other documentation proving how well the plane was cared for.  I told him what was great about the airplane and honestly what I felt could use some freshening before he traveled to look at it in person.  I tried my best to paint a realistic picture of the aircraft's condition so when he did see it and it was inspected, the plane would meet or exceeded his expectations.  I also told the buyer that if he purchased the plane and ANYTHING broke during his 5+ hour return flight, I'd pay to have it fixed.  I was that confident in its' condition.

When he did come to see the airplane and had an annual/pre buy performed, his A&P did not find even one sqwauk.  The plane was in near perfect condition, airworthy, and all AD's and SB's were up to date.   This didn't happen by chance.  The plane was sold and flew back to the new owners home field without any problems what-so-ever.

I say all this, so potential buyers understand...If a seller paints an overly rosey picture and doesn't also discuss the negatives of a particular aircraft, your probably not getting the whole story.  If a seller offers to cover expenses for any item that break or are found to be inoperative then that's a good sign.  Sellers who adopt a policy of "As is - Where is" aren't the kinds of folks I want to do business with.  The art of the deal must include how you "feel" about the seller.  It's hard to quantify, but you do have to "trust your gut" when it comes to business dealings with a stranger.  For me, the Mooney community is too small and my reputation means a lot more to me than a few bucks.  This may not always be the case with some less reputable mooney brokers and individual sellers.  Buyers have to do there homework, get a thorough pre purchase inspection from a neutral third party and trust their gut when it comes to the sellers morals...My2Cnts

[orangemtl]

My father told me when I was 10, "Never buy the first puppy you see: they're all cute, but some are a little more so than the others." 

Look at some planes, and then some more, and then some more.  Doesn't matter if you're buying an aircraft, or a car, or a couch. Exposure produces product knowledge that no pamphlet or checklist can match.  Good luck!

[smccray]

I was recently told about MSCs and how they're not all created equal. From time to time, Mooney made a shop an MSC in order to sell a new plane. In other words, I'm interested in a new Acclaim S but there's not an MSC within 300 mi- if you make my guy an MSC then I'll buy a new plane. Hire a person/shop/reputation, not an MSC.

I lucked out- I received some great advice from two mooneyspace members (thanks again Parker and Scott) and I think my purchase went okay. Time will tell given that it's only been 90 days, but Don Maxwell has been inside the plane a couple times well and he has good things to say and I feel that I've been treated well. BTW- there's 5k hours on my airframe with a gear up in 1989 and a factory wing skin replacement in 1991.

[fantom]

Quote: allsmiles

[Cris]

Quote: fantom

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job and the SB has been taken care of, it stands to reason, being a good mechanic, he'd put it in the logs! If it's not documented it's not done!

[Shadrach]

I'm sorry did I say asinine?...How about completely out of your head asinine, uninformed and ignorant of what is truly important about safety and airworthiness assessment. Why not just bring a scale and weigh the logs. Then buy the machine with the heaviest logs; that should work out well. 

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

depends if the SB was written by an engineer, a pilot, or a lawyer.

[jetdriven]

Right on, Ross. I agree completely.  My log entries are actally confined to 2 pages of printed labels where they would take 5 pages to hand write. I have been quite busy the first year.

[jetdriven]

Just like Lycoming convinced the FAA to reissue a service bulletin with a "mandatory crankshaft retirement" as an AD, affecting 3,700 crankshafts.  Or Hartzell convincing the FAA to issue a service bulletin as an AD retiring prop hubs based on TWO in-flight failures from millions of hours of service.  Lawyers.

Quote: Shadrach

Or the person in charge of driving revenue growth... Only in aviation can a company redesign a part that is 98% the same as the original that's been performing flawlessly for 28 years and issue a "mandatory" SB insisting you buy it or have the FAA mandate that you buy it.  If you don't think there's politics involved in some of these decisions then you are naive.

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

Or the person in charge of driving revenue growth... Only in aviation can a company redesign a part that is 98% the same as the original that's been performing flawlessly for 28 years and issue a "mandatory" SB insisting you buy it or have the FAA mandate that you buy it.  If you don't think there's politics involved in some of these decisions then you are naive.

[flight2000]

Quote: Shadrach

 

[NotarPilot]

Thanks for the great advice.  I do intend to look at as many planes as I can and determine which one is best for me.  I understand $65 is a bit low but I fiigure that partially because of a high time engine and original paint that needs to be redone.  I totally agree with the comments that paying more will probably save money in the long run.  Here are a few images, as suggested my another poster, of the issues I had concerns with.  And yes, it's a 1977 model, NOT a 1978 like I originally stated.  My error, I apologize.  Please let me know your opinions on the rivets, aluminum, etc.  Remember, this is a 1977 plane with original paint so the peeling is to be expected.  I'm more concerned about the metal underneath.

Thanks,

Steve

[231Pilot]

The condition of the landing gear biscuits alone is indicative of the maintenance /lack of maintenance that this aircraft has received.  I would expect to have to invest at least as much as the asking price to thoroughly inspect and then repair the visible and hidden discrepancies, cosmetic issues and possible avionics upgrades to make this plane acceptable.  It might cost a lot more than that once you find all the squawks.

[PTK]

Quote: Shadrach

If your Mooney mechanic has been doing a good job and the SB has been taken care of, it stands to reason, being a good mechanic, he'd put it in the logs! If it's not documented it's not done!

[NotarPilot]

Quote: JimR

 Also, the gear biscuits look ancient, something that you just shouldn't see in a well-maintained Mooney. 

Good luck!

 

Jim

[PTK]

Quote: Cris

Not to mention a royal PITA as you waste peoples time doing what you refer to as "research". BTW, I agree with your self evaluation!

Hey Gary be nice now. I know it's a full moon but you might actually like this guy if you ever met.

 

[rbridges]

Quote: NotarPilot

Yes, I was told the gear "biscuits" are original and they are something that needs to be replaced.

What about the rust around the rivets on the horizontal stab?  Any comments?

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: NotarPilot

Thanks for the great advice.  I do intend to look at as many planes as I can and determine which one is best for me.  I understand $65 is a bit low but I fiigure that partially because of a high time engine and original paint that needs to be redone.  I totally agree with the comments that paying more will probably save money in the long run.  Here are a few images, as suggested my another poster, of the issues I had concerns with.  And yes, it's a 1977 model, NOT a 1978 like I originally stated.  My error, I apologize.  Please let me know your opinions on the rivets, aluminum, etc.  Remember, this is a 1977 plane with original paint so the peeling is to be expected.  I'm more concerned about the metal underneath.

Thanks,

Steve

[fantom]

Quote: allsmiles

 

[PTK]

Steve, this could be transformed into a nice airplane if you are dealing with a flexible realistic seller. It obviously has been sitting outside and has had mx, deferred, to be polite! Needs a very thorough corrosion inspection. Then plan to spend some $$'s to bring it up to speed. Potential problem I see is you could be buying an airworthy airplane today that becomes non-airworthy tomorrow on your watch! The seller will probably not go beyond airworthy condition. In other words you will be, in theory, buying an airworthy airplane but practically speaking it will cost you substantial money to bring it up to your comfort level. This differential may put you over and above its real value. Proceed with that in mind and get the seller to lower price accordingly. Be careful. The seller has to agree to pay for mx he chose to defer and not defer it to you! He can't have his cake and eat it too! If you are dealing with an unrealistic seller then you probably should walk.

[gregwatts]

Quote: NotarPilot

Thanks for the great advice. I do intend to look at as many planes as I can and determine which one is best for me. I understand $65 is a bit low but I fiigure that partially because of a high time engine and original paint that needs to be redone. I totally agree with the comments that paying more will probably save money in the long run. Here are a few images, as suggested my another poster, of the issues I had concerns with. And yes, it's a 1977 model, NOT a 1978 like I originally stated. My error, I apologize. Please let me know your opinions on the rivets, aluminum, etc. Remember, this is a 1977 plane with original paint so the peeling is to be expected. I'm more concerned about the metal underneath.

Thanks,

Steve

[rbridges]

Quote: gregwatts

The metal is not what you should be worried about. Your concern should be everything else that has been neglected on this plane for 34 years. The metal is fine. As you read each post on this board since your original post, most of these owners pay great attn to detail on their planes. You can have this painted, but you lose the plane for the amount of time it takes....same with an OH. You also pay for all the labor charges that the previous owner didn't. This plane has been on the market for quite some time.........and for good reason! For the $65K you are going to spend on this....plus your sales tax....and then another $40K minimum for paint, interior, engine, and whatever else, you will have the most expensive 77 201 in the land. My opinion only.

[AndyFromCB]

Fanton,

So if the logs weight more than a duck, would you still buy the airplane?

Andy

[Cruiser]

If this plane has spent a lot of time outside, I would carefully check the logs for evidence of SB 208B. The sealant under the side windows cracks and water can run down the inside of the fuselage soaking the insulation inside. The wet insulation in contact with the steel cockpit frame can cause massive rust issues. Some plane have required removal and replacement of the steel frame. Not an easy nor inexpensive repair.

Even if the SB 208B has been performed, I would do the inspection to be sure the steel cage is not rusted.