Advice for an inspection prior to prebuy on a Bravo

[Schllc]

I just signed a contract on a Bravo. I’ve reviewed the logs thoroughly.

1500tt half the cylinders have been replaced, exhaust was removed and sent for repair at 1200 hours. Pretty good maintenance at factory and Maxwell except for the last few years. 
any bravo or tks specific issues I should be looking for or concerned about or look for?

im pretty versed on “Mooney”, and normal aging airplane issues but have no experience with Bravo’s or Lycoming engines. All four I have owned have been continentals. 
any advice would be appreciated. 

[Davidv]

34 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I just signed a contract on a Bravo. I’ve reviews the logs thoroughly.

1500tt half the cylinders have been replaced, exhaust was removed and sent for repair at 1200 hours. Pretty good maintenance at factory and Maxwell except for the last few years. 
any bravo or tks specific issues I should be looking for or concerned about or look for?

im pretty versed on “Mooney”, and normal aging airplane issues but have no experience with Bravo’s or Lycoming engines. All four I have owned have been continentals. 
any advice would be appreciated. 

Welcome to the Lycoming world! I’ve had my bravo for a few years so there are probably many more that have more knowledge than me, but just thinking about some of my experiences:

1) When the exhaust was overhauled see if they changed the turbo transition piece as well. Because this piece is pricey they don’t always change it out when they do the overhaul.  If it’s in fine shape with no pitting or other visual issues you should be fine but good to check.

2) better compressions but expect the occasional minor oil leak.  It’s a pretty complex engine so this is not abnormal.

3) on your flight test take it up to 25k and see if you have to make small adjustments to MP either on the way up or down. May be density controller or butterfly valve issues. Also note climb performance.  If it’s heavy this is probably the biggest difference you’ll see between the bravo and acclaim.

4) see if any work was done on voltage regulator. You may never have an issue here buts it’s a $2300 part and nice to see if it’s been having any issues or replaced.

5) if the maintenance hasn’t been so good for the last few years where has the plane sat? Just not great maintenance or sitting and not flying? My plane sat a little before purchase and I’ve had to deal with some minor things like replacing mags, overhaul speedbrakes, ect...

6) Baffling extremely important since the engine runs hot.  Just make sure it’s in good shape or replace/use RTV where necessary.

Those are the immediate (non-general Mooney) things that come to mind, I’m sure others will have more...

[mike_elliott]

Good summary David. Setting up the DA controller should only be done by those in the know with the right tools. 

Ray, have you sold the Ultra? If you need a place to park it  

I would add a cheap borescope to my tool box (oh wait, I have) to run up the exhaust and inspect the turbo and blades regularly if you dont already have one. The exhaust and mags are the Bravo's weak points, and both should get regular attention. Any exhaust staining requires immediate action to keep you and your plane healthy, as in all turbo charged planes.

 

[carusoam]

Congrats on the near acquisition...
 

Be up to speed on V-bands... and their single use limitations....

They are expensive, and hard to throw away... after a simple mistake...

They are not obvious install failures when accidentally re-used...

Every mechanic should know this by now...

Any exhaust leaks between the exhaust valve and the turbo can be blow torch hot... and good at cutting things inside the cowling...

 

For turbo exhaust systems in their later life... expect to find thinning of the castings and tubes and other parts between the exhaust valve and turbo...

There is a pic around here where somebody poked a hole in their thinned exhaust tube at annual... sort of an erosion issue over time...

 

Thats the gist of exhaust health with turbo engines...

Sort of a cost of doing business... but something to be aware of so you recognize the hints before they become problems...

early ownership would be the time to be extra aware....

 

As far as testing out and inspecting a TKS system... run it and see if it easily wets out all the panels... if it has been used often, this will be an obvious success...   unused systems have a tendency to to have challenge with TKS fluid drying in the system and blocking flow...

Also check to see if anything is loose and look ready to fall off.... (some odd failures that have happened around here over the years)

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... (memories and respect to the lesson of Bill G)

Best regards,

-a-

[FJC]

I too am scoping out Bravos and there are a number of seemingly good ones. Trying to find something that needs little in the avionics department.

My biggest concerns are exhaust related and general attention to items that were deferred in the last few years. I made an offer but backed out because I suspected this. I have a inspection scope list that I started to compile:

Crank AD?
Other AD’s
Airworthiness?
Tank Seals
Turbo status (compressor wheel, smooth rotation, end play, borescope up tailpipe to view turbines wheel, inspection housing for cracks, clamps)
Suspension donuts
Exhaust system 
Speed brakes overhaul
Battery replacement x 2 (every 4-5 years)
Certain gauges need work/overhaul
Electric boost pump rebuild
Prop governor 
Prop overhaul
Strobe light replacement
Alternator replace
Starter replace
O2 tank replace (15 year life, 5 year hydrostatic inspections)
O2 regulator rebuild

 

I've been collecting items on here for some time. Thank to numerous people that have written and provided insight. Thank you.

 

Freddy

 

 

[carusoam]

Freddy,

have you decided to go turbo?

Best regards,

-a-

[daytonabch04]

Once you go turbo, you won't go back.  I wish mine had FIKI and I'm waiting for the right Acclaim to come on the market so my Bravo can find a new home 

[apenney]

40 minutes ago, daytonabch04 said:

Once you go turbo, you won't go back.  I wish mine had FIKI and I'm waiting for the right Acclaim to come on the market so my Bravo can find a new home 

I moved up from a '76 F to my Bravo and FIKI has made a huge difference for me.  I love the turbo too.  GPH is much higher but its worth it to me.

[donkaye]

Does it have a Plessey gear motor?   If, yes, deduct $18,000 from the purchase price.  They aren't made any more and no back springs are available.  If for some reason you did find one, they cost in excess of $1,500.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Infamous_Back_Clutch_Spring.html

Expect to overhaul the turbo and waste gate in addition to needing exhaust repairs at mid-time on the engine.

I'm on my 3rd engine and on every one the MP had to be backed off in descent.  I've even overhauled both density and pressure differential controllers with no improvement.

 

[Davidv]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

Does it have a Plessey gear motor?   If, yes, deduct $18,000 from the purchase price.  They aren't made any more and no back springs are available.  If for some reason you did find one, they cost in excess of $1,500.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Infamous_Back_Clutch_Spring.html

Expect to overhaul the turbo and waste gate in addition to needing exhaust repairs at mid-time on the engine.

I'm on my 3rd engine and on every one the MP had to be backed off in descent.  I've even overhauled both density and pressure differential controllers with no improvement.

 

Thanks Don, I also need to back off my MP a little in the descent, I'm glad this is somewhat normal.  In the climb it holds steady at 34 inches though. 

Maybe something has changed on the availability of the springs? I know they are available and are actively being ordered.  You're correct on the price though, somewhere between $1200-1500 from an MSC (and you may have to wait for one).

 

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, daytonabch04 said:

Once you go turbo, you won't go back.  I wish mine had FIKI and I'm waiting for the right Acclaim to come on the market so my Bravo can find a new home 

Dustin,

Among all the Mooney models, the Acclaim has the least plane-to-plane variability.  Off the top of my head, for the FIKI plane you want, the only variables are:

1. exterior and interior colors and design
2. WAAS or not
3. Option 3 (the VNAV button on the GFC controls 
4. Type S or not
5. 310 HP or not
6. Ultra or not

There are some minor avionics options like storm scope, active traffic, what transponder, that sort of stuff, but as compared to the rest of the fleet, they are pretty uniform.

Dan

[FJC]

@donkaye I've added that to my list of things to look for. How do we know/ID Plessey Gear Motor?

[donkaye]

40 minutes ago, FJC said:

@donkaye I've added that to my list of things to look for. How do we know/ID Plessey Gear Motor?

The maker is labeled on the gear motor.  Easy to find.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

Thanks Don, I also need to back off my MP a little in the descent, I'm glad this is somewhat normal.  In the climb it holds steady at 34 inches though. 

Maybe something has changed on the availability of the springs? I know they are available and are actively being ordered.  You're correct on the price though, somewhere between $1200-1500 from an MSC (and you may have to wait for one).

 

Backsprings are available, just not for the Plessey gear motor--at least not as of several years ago.  Tom Rouch from Top Gun used to overhaul other types of gear motors  before he retired.  I was fortunate enough to be able to buy one of those.  Paul, from Laser, also rebuilt other types of gear motors and was selling them for about $10,000 before he retired.

[Davidv]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Backsprings are available, just not for the Plessey gear motor--at least not as of several years ago.  Tom Rouch from Top Gun used to overhaul other types of gear motors  before he retired.  I was fortunate enough to be able to buy one of those.  Paul, from Laser, also rebuilt other types of gear motors and was selling them for about $10,000 before he retired.

Mooney just received a batch of Plessey springs, they aren’t easy to get from the manufacturer (I’m not making future guarantees) but not impossible.

[donkaye]

7 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If a potential buyer asked me for a 18 AMU credit for future maintenance that is only required by SB I would suggest that he search elsewhere for a plane.  But when I am selling I set my price aggressively so as not to have to deal with those types of buyers.  I have no patience for them.  

Well, I wouldn't consider buying a Mooney with a plessey gear motor, so it wouldn't be an issue.  I have 4,000 hours on my airplane and that means 4 back spring changes.  Failure to change the backspacing, and then failure of the backspacing, which as you know makes extending the gear an impossibility, would be a lot more expensive than $18,000.  I stand by the requirement of either the discount or find another airplane.

[donkaye]

4 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Mooney just received a batch of Plessey springs, they aren’t easy to get from the manufacturer (I’m not making future guarantees) but not impossible.

If that is true, I am surprised because that spring is not compatible with other gear motors and my understanding was nobody wanted to make them because of the limited number of motors out there.  We asked Mooney for years with no success. 

PS I just called Mark, at Top Gun, and asked him to check into it.  He knew Mooney just got in some Avionics Products back springs, but will check on Plessey.

[Bravoman]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

If that is true, I am surprised because that spring is not compatible with other gear motors and my understanding was nobody wanted to make them because of the limited number of motors out there.  We asked Mooney for years with no success. 

PS I just called Mark, at Top Gun, and asked him to check into it.  He knew Mooney just got in some Avionics Products back springs, but will check on Plessey.

Were the Plessy’s installed during certain years of the Bravo production run only, or were they randomly installed the whole time the Bravos were made? I had my back spring installed a few years back so I am assuming I do not have a plessey in my 98.

[Bravoman]

16 hours ago, daytonabch04 said:

Once you go turbo, you won't go back.  I wish mine had FIKI and I'm waiting for the right Acclaim to come on the market so my Bravo can find a new home 

I’m actually toying around with the idea of adding FIKI  to my bravo at some point. I know I’ll never see my money back out of it, but I know what I have with the airplane at this point, and like the Lycoming engine(vs changing out for the Acclaim).

 By the way, I do not have much to add on the OP’s questions beyond what David and Anthony have said above, other than reiterating that the first couple of years are going to be the most expensive to shake the bugs out, and  as with any Mooney that’s 20+ years old make sure to check for corrosion in the usual spots, most particularly the tubular structure.

[Schllc]

The model I’m looking at is a gx model with g1000. It’s a 2005. 
it has the stec55. I think I read once there is only one Bravo out there with a gfc700.  I’ve never seen one and I have a shopping addiction to long body mooneys, so it seems plausible. 
no waas either,  but the upgrade isnt 40k nor is it hard to come by parts. I’ve done two, and anytime i look for the Gia63w’s  I can find it them.  They aren’t on the shelf at every avionics shop, but a little effort turns them up. 
I inspected it today in person. It’s a nice and clean plane. 
the stec has been out of the plane six times, including at this moment for head or trim motor servos. I didn’t have any issue with the two I owned, so not sure what that’s about. 
Very minor hail damage on the ailerons only, and it’s hard to see with the paint color. 
also one of the few planes that finish looked better in person than photos. It’s usually the other way around. 
one owner and hangar kept. 

[apenney]

On 12/14/2020 at 10:40 PM, donkaye said:

 

I'm on my 3rd engine and on every one the MP had to be backed off in descent.  I've even overhauled both density and pressure differential controllers with no improvement.

 

Is needing to back off MP on descent considered a normal finding then, even with normally functioning density and differential controllers?

[donkaye]

17 minutes ago, apenney said:

Is needing to back off MP on descent considered a normal finding then, even with normally functioning density and differential controllers?

I don't know if it is normal, but it is what I have had to do with all my engines.

[apenney]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I don't know if it is normal, but it is what I have had to do with all my engines.

That has been my experience as well...though for only my 6 months of ownership vs your decades  

[daytonabch04]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

I don't know if it is normal, but it is what I have had to do with all my engines.

I leave my prop at cruise setting (2200) in the decent and then full forward for landing...am I wrong? 

[Davidv]

18 minutes ago, daytonabch04 said:

I leave my prop at cruise setting (2200) in the decent and then full forward for landing...am I wrong? 

We're referring to the fact that the MP wants to rise slightly as we descend and have to make some small corrections to keep it static.  It shouldn't have anything to do with your prop.  I assume your MP does this as well?