Masks or Cannulas or?

[milotron]

Hi,

 

For those that regularly fly in the O2 levels, how do you manage the fatigue? I spent about 5 hours yesterday over 12k and was wiped afterwards, even though on cannula with saturation over 98% the whole time. Drinking water the also to avoid dehydration.

Not sure that a mask would improve things as the saturation level was already at my normal at sea level.

48 and healthy, no known issues.

Living in the pacific NW has a regular need for these kinds of flights, but after yesterday my quest for a PA46 is resuming in earnest.

 

Any suggestions on managing this better?

[RobertGary1]

12K you should be fine with cannula. May try raising your flow. Do you have an sat meter? I keep one in my seat pocket. Individual O2 demand will vary. Also, flying is just tiring. When I have had O2 issues I usually find that comes with a headache.

 

-Robert

[milotron]

Yes, headache was still being suffered this morning.  

I used a fingertip sat meter and always at or over 98% the whole time as I kept checking it and adjusted flow accordingly.

Holding for 45 minutes waiting for fog to clear didn't help...

 

I was going to try the mask as originally had planned for higher but just used the cannula.

 

[Nick Pilotte]

I was wondering what you meant by “wiped”.  Physically, emotionally, mentally? Were you making poor decisions or making mistakes?  What is your O2 sat when you are walking around the house?

[milotron]

Hi, very tired after I got home. No issues while flying and the approaches/departures were all to minima due to the fog/smoke. Not an easy day by any stretch but just really surprised at how much it took out of me.

I was actually a little impressed with myself on my performance, all things considered. It was a lot of IFR work for one morning.

[Schllc]

My current plane has the precise flight system which comes with flow regulators. 
this distributes oxygen when inhaling and conserves a LOT of o2. A side benefit is it’s a lot less stressful on sinuses, and you can literally hear it disburse so the constant fear of “am I getting flow” is gone. 
I find that noise wears me out more than lack of o2. 
I think it stresses all your senses which adds to fatigue. 
I just took a trip that flew for almost 32 hours doing 6-8 hours of flying every day, and I was never as tired as in my old plane. 
vast majority of the trip was between 16-18k.

if I ever have another plane with o2 and it doesn’t have these regulators, I will purchase the mountain air system. Whatever it costs, it’s worth it. 

[milotron]

3 minutes ago, Schllc said:

My current plane has the precise flight system which comes with flow regulators. 
this distributes oxygen when inhaling and conserves a LOT of o2. A side benefit is it’s a lot less stressful on sinuses, and you can literally hear it disburse so the constant fear of “am I getting flow” is gone. 
I find that noise wears me out more than lack of o2. 
I think it stresses all your senses which adds to fatigue. 
I just took a trip that flew for almost 32 hours doing 6-8 hours of flying every day, and I was never as tired as in my old plane. 
vast majority of the trip was between 16-18k.

if I ever have another plane with o2 and it doesn’t have these regulators, I will purchase the mountain air system. Whatever it costs, it’s worth it. 

Interesting comment. at $100 per O2 fill I suspect the cost of adding the system add on would pay for itself soon enough.

[Schllc]

28 hours of continuous use for two people and I didn’t use 1/3rd of the capacity

[Ragsf15e]

47 minutes ago, milotron said:

Hi,

 

For those that regularly fly in the O2 levels, how do you manage the fatigue? I spent about 5 hours yesterday over 12k and was wiped afterwards, even though on cannula with saturation over 98% the whole time. Drinking water the also to avoid dehydration.

Not sure that a mask would improve things as the saturation level was already at my normal at sea level.

48 and healthy, no known issues.

Living in the pacific NW has a regular need for these kinds of flights, but after yesterday my quest for a PA46 is resuming in earnest.

 

Any suggestions on managing this better?

If your oxygen sat is 98%, it’s not the altitude or O2 delivery.  Maybe the Smoke?  I’ve been all over the NW this week (KBFI right now) and the smoke is brutal on sinuses and headaches.  My bet is it’s smoke related and would be fine with a cannula next week when it clears.

[aviatoreb]

Have you had altitude headaches like this before?  

98% seems pretty good and I would not think there would be any altitude issues with that kind of saturation going.  Now for sure I am no flight surgeon, or even any kind of doctor of any kind.

But could this be some other condition that you are experiencing right now?  Is BC experiencing all the smoke that is part of current the wild fire disasters?  If so, could that be causing headaches independent of whether or not you are flying?

[rcwagner]

Concerning the remark about noise fatigue, I have of lately been using hearing protection ear plugs inside my noise attenuating head set, and turn the volume up so that I can clearly hear the intercom and radio.  It helps a lot with the noise bypassing the headset ear pads.

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, rcwagner said:

Concerning the remark about noise fatigue, I have of lately been using hearing protection ear plugs inside my noise attenuating head set, and turn the volume up so that I can clearly hear the intercom and radio.  It helps a lot with the noise bypassing the headset ear pads.

I tried that once or twice to help with my tinnitus. I think it may help a bit. 
 

-Robert 

[milotron]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I tried that once or twice to help with my tinnitus. I think it may help a bit. 
 

-Robert 

I have been using my Halos with Peltor 33dB muffs on the outside during takeoff/climb to manage the sound. Once at altitude it is typically much quieter.

 

Agreed, the smoke is a huge issue now and might be part of this. Hard to tell the difference between the smoke and fog right now as we have both.

View from 8k yesterday.

[Fry]

1. Noise can cause fatigue - think about mitigating that.

2. 5 hours of flight is a lot - consider making a break in the middle. Even 30min can work wonders

3. Don't laugh, but the fitter you are, the more muscle you have, will impact your need for oxygen. Less sports helps :-)

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

Yes, headache was still being suffered this morning.  

I used a fingertip sat meter and always at or over 98% the whole time as I kept checking it and adjusted flow accordingly.

Holding for 45 minutes waiting for fog to clear didn't help...

 

I was going to try the mask as originally had planned for higher but just used the cannula.

 

Do you have a CO meter? Your symptoms resemble CO poisoning.

CO will cause high SPo2 readings.

[milotron]

6 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Do you have a CO meter? Your symptoms resemble CO poisoning.

CO will cause high SPo2 readings.

CO2...I do use a meter but didn't have it out as it hasn't been an issue in the past. I will try it on the next flight in case something has changed.

[kmyfm20s]

https://acphospitalist.org/archives/2009/12/tech.htm
 

here is a article on it. The fact that you maintained 98% the entire flight I bet Rich is right!  

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Do you have a CO meter? Your symptoms resemble CO poisoning.

CO will cause high SPo2 readings.

Wow - I bet you are right!  Those SPo2 readings are suspiciously high for altitude flying.  I would guessing something in the mid 90s with a cannula at that altitude more believable - 

But headaches the next day?

CO is a major possibility.

I had a minor induction leak that I recently first found with readings on my CO monitor - plus also readings on my engine monitor suggesting leaner than expected due to higher EGT. Good instrumentation and we found it before it found me.

[milotron]

15 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

https://acphospitalist.org/archives/2009/12/tech.htm
 

here is a article on it. The fact that you maintained 98% the entire flight I bet Rich is right!  

Interesting. I'll check this next time I am up.

[milotron]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Wow - I bet you are right!  Those SPo2 readings are suspiciously high for altitude flying.  I would guessing something in the mid 90s with a cannula at that altitude more believable - 

But headaches the next day?

CO is a major possibility.

I had a minor induction leak that I recently first found with readings on my CO monitor - plus also readings on my engine monitor suggesting leaner than expected due to higher EGT. Good instrumentation and we found it before it found me.

They definitely went up and down as O2 flow was varied. I dialed it down a bit at one point and saw 95% before I dialed it back up again.

 

Still feeling it behind the right eye even now.

 

Altitude flying tend to affect me like this, but this was one of the worst, and with the O2 being used and monitored I wasn't really expecting this.

Certainly more work required on this.

[smwash02]

I fly at/above FL180 where the risk is even greater so I keep two pulse oximeters onboard to cross reference / have a backup. Might be another angle to check given how inexpensive they are these days.

[Fry]

ANY CO detector, and be it a $30 China model, is probably the best investment of all in flight safety.

(I fly regularly with two CO detectors, one is built-in in the panel, the other is a "home depot"-kind of $30-detector).

PS. I wasn't aware the SpO2-sensors show CO poisoning as high O2 levels. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Austintatious]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

Hi,

 

For those that regularly fly in the O2 levels, how do you manage the fatigue? I spent about 5 hours yesterday over 12k and was wiped afterwards, even though on cannula with saturation over 98% the whole time. Drinking water the also to avoid dehydration.

Not sure that a mask would improve things as the saturation level was already at my normal at sea level.

48 and healthy, no known issues.

Living in the pacific NW has a regular need for these kinds of flights, but after yesterday my quest for a PA46 is resuming in earnest.

 

Any suggestions on managing this better?

Get a mountain high O2 system...  I fly at FL210 on a cannula and feel like I have been at sea level the whole time.

Get a monoxide detector!

Get a good headset... I have a Bose QC35 with a Ufly mic and it is really good.

[carusoam]

Reminder for Milotron...

1) I flew the most vibrating, noisy, no AP, M20C around...

Two hours of that left me tired, ready to sleep, as normal...
 

A bit of rest after the flight, perfectly back to normal...

 

2) Bad effects left over the next day... keep both eyes open for something else....
 

3) Good % saturated O2 numbers are highly suspect...  Be extra aware/ know the saturated O2 monitor that goes on your fingertip... also reads CO the same way at the same time...
 

Unless you are an Olympic marathon runner That has normally trained at high altitudes... you will not see 98% O2 above 12,500’...  that is clearly a false reading...

An ordinary MSer will see O2 percentages drop to the low 90s over time at much lower altitudes...

4) What CO monitor do you have?  There is one around here that is well known, many MSers are using the Same one... ask @DanM20C for help ordering one... with an MS discount...
 

5) @milotron you have too many symptoms that mimic CO poisoning...

6) It would be easy to take the cowl off and have a look to see what is leaking...

7) If it is CO escaping from the engine... this would be a do not fly situation... because it Can get magically worse in one flight...

8) Broken exhaust systems have resulted in too many accidents around MS... not all of them have been very survivable...

 

So...

9) Go get your CO monitor... it will be reading higher than normal from engine start to shut down if you have the slightest CO leak...

10) With a turboCharged engine, you risk an engine fire, if the usual leaks of the usual worn parts are involved...

11) Be on the look out for leaky V-bands, and gray stains around all the exhaust parts... signs of leaks are bad...

12) Also know... CO2 needs to be straightened out... it is not CO...   it is only close in spelling... a completely different, and deadly,  chemical.  CO2 is easily breathed out...  CO stays stuck to the red blood cells for hours

13) Nothing can cloud the judgement of a good brain like low O2%....  everything can seem fine, while the situation can be worsening or getting away...

Sorry to load up the homework assignment...  but, it’s due in before your next flight...

The good news... if the plane is all good... you get to go see the Dr... to find out why you have so many health symptoms with flying...   

PP thoughts only, not always an alarmist... and not a mechanic... Or a doctor...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

54 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Reminder for Milotron...

 

The good news... if the plane is all good... you get to go see the Dr... to find out why you have so many health symptoms with flying...   

 

And then you have to report it to the FAA on your next medical questionnaire. 

-Robert