Can’t get Insurance

[Jungle Pilot]

I had an insurance claim last year on my M20K 252 in May and now my insurance Co. won’t renew. AOPA can’t find any of their 8 underwriters that will issue a policy either. Avemco will write me a policy once a year past the claim. Where can I get a policy? 

[RobertGary1]

Everyone has their favorite broker. I like Southwest Aviation. @Parker_Woodruff is on here and also a broker. 8 underwriters doesn't sound very exhaustive unless your broker formally owned by AOPA just was sure others wouldn't write you.

-Robert

[carusoam]

JP,

Are you familiar with the reasons that the ’no-quotes’ are happening?

With Parker, he gives the full story of what goes on behind the scenes...

If there is a way to get over the hurdle, Parker can find it...   

If it is an age discrimination challenge AOPA legal might be a possible route...

Best regards,

-a-

[Parker_Woodruff]

Underwriters are being more selective on risks with recent losses.  If they won't insure for flight, certainly you can get something done for Ground Not in Motion until your 1-year is up.

Happy to chat

Parker 

214-295-5055 (office)

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

[MikeOH]

@Parker_Woodruff

How common is it becoming for this to happen when there is an in-motion loss?  Will any kind of in-motion loss invoke this penalty box, or are there certain 'death sentence' sins that it takes?  E.g., would a gear-up do the trick?

[PT20J]

5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Parker_Woodruff

How common is it becoming for this to happen when there is an in-motion loss?  Will any kind of in-motion loss invoke this penalty box, or are there certain 'death sentence' sins that it takes?  E.g., would a gear-up do the trick?

@Parker_Woodruff, to expand on that: Do other factors come into play such as total experience, recent experience, certificates and ratings, time in type? In other words, consider two pilots:

Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and forgets to put the gear down.

In today's climate, would each be treated equally for renewal?

Thanks,

Skip

[MikeOH]

21 minutes ago, PT20J said:

@Parker_Woodruff, to expand on that: Do other factors come into play such as total experience, recent experience, certificates and ratings, time in type? In other words, consider two pilots:

Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and forgets to put the gear down.

In today's climate, would each be treated equally for renewal?

Thanks,

Skip

Hmm, I think the more interesting question would be, given the same two hypothetical pilots but both land gear-up due to simply forgetting the gear.  Would they both be treated to policy cancellation?  Or, just the low time guy?

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I think the more interesting question would be, given the same two hypothetical pilots but both land gear-up due to simply forgetting the gear.  Would they both be treated to policy cancellation?  Or, just the low time guy?

Fair enough, it would be interesting to look at it both ways. I didn't mean to imply a bias against the low time pilot -- I was just wondering if the circumstances had any bearing. My gut tells me that insurance companies consider a loss a loss -- but...

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Fair enough, it would be interesting to look at it both ways. I didn't mean to imply a bias against the low time pilot -- I was just wondering if the circumstances had any bearing. My gut tells me that insurance companies consider a loss a loss -- but...

That's the crux of it: will the insurance company show a bias in light of a claim towards the lower time pilot and give a pass to the high time guy.  Or, do they conclude they don't want the risk of either pilot going forward.

[MikeOH]

The more I ruminate on this new policy, the more concerned I am becoming.  This policy could cause the GA death spiral to rapidly worsen.  We are already paying higher premiums due to a decline in the active GA pilot population.  Add to that big claims payments in other areas of aviation insurance driving up our premiums...

So, what happens when a GA pilot is denied insurance for a year?  In all likelihood he is going to stop flying, and may NEVER return even after his excommunication has ended.

I hope insurance companies have carefully thought thru this draconian approach.  Prices will spiral upward as the market shrinks and that may lead to such high premiums for the remaining pilots that many may just throw in the towel.  At some point the market will be too small for insurance companies to serve.  YIKES!!

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

That's the crux of it: will the insurance company show a bias in light of a claim towards the lower time pilot and give a pass to the high time guy.  Or, do they conclude they don't want the risk of either pilot going forward.

I know for car insurance it’s exactly the opposite. The insurance company always considered the low time person was a risk and accepted that for the higher premium. But a good driver with an excellent record will find car insurance goes up much more than the teen because now you lose all those good driver discounts. 
 

-Robert  

[MikeOH]

30 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I know for car insurance it’s exactly the opposite. The insurance company always considered the low time person was a risk and accepted that for the higher premium. But a good driver with an excellent record will find car insurance goes up much more than the teen because now you lose all those good driver discounts. 
 

-Robert  

That's an excellent observation.  I wonder if that applies to aviation insurance?  Parker?

[RLCarter]

Don’t forget to factor in your credit score

[tmo]

Is insurance mandatory for GA in the US, or are we talking optional "collision"-type insurance?

[Bunti]

Most states in the US do not require GA airplanes to have any type of insurance.

[Frank B.]

17 hours ago, Jungle Pilot said:

I had an insurance claim last year on my M20K 252 in May and now my insurance Co. won’t renew. AOPA can’t find any of their 8 underwriters that will issue a policy either. Avemco will write me a policy once a year past the claim. Where can I get a policy? 

You should call Joe Cacho at 877-247-7767. While I always insure with him I also always shop his price. I have never been able to beat his price and he searches hard for what you need. Always same day reply and gives you his cell # on the first call, which he always answers. 

 

[JimB]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

@Parker_Woodruff, to expand on that: Do other factors come into play such as total experience, recent experience, certificates and ratings, time in type? In other words, consider two pilots:

Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and forgets to put the gear down.

In today's climate, would each be treated equally for renewal?

Thanks,

Skip

Actually we should further complicate that and 

Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and forgets to put the gear down

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

[NJMac]

Actually we should further complicate that and  Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and forgets to put the gear down

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

 

A loss for an insurance company is just the occurrence of a statistic, craps rolled 7. To us who want to apply logic, the why matters. If it's likely to happen at whatever rate, I don't see the why mattering in the least to the company.  

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

The members of this forum are probably the exception since they are actively participating, but I think it would be scary to find out how few pilots actually do recurrent training to keep or improve their skills. Yes, insurance companies are greedy and want to make money, just like any other business, but losses drive up premiums.

Recurrent training is more important as we age - we aren’t as sharp as we used to be, plus aviation is changing rapidly. It amazes me there aren’t more accidents than there are when you hear, or especially when you don’t hear people going into and out of uncontrolled fields.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, JimB said:

Pilot #1 has an ATP 10,000 hours, 2,000 hours in a Mooney and forgets to put the gear down

Pilot #2 has a Private, 200 hrs, 50 hours in Mooneys and lands gear up due to a mechanical failure.

LOL... Yeah this is the more likely scenario. 

The ATP guy is used to having a professional gear extender sitting in the cockpit.

[Davidv]

It could be worse, I just spoke with a friend who got a quoted $4K on his P210.  He has 25K hours and is a DPE.  Goes to show you what a high gear up rate does to prices.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

The action of the insurance company (especially if it is insurance companies in mass) to drop owners like this guarantees that the dropped owners will not pay any more premiums into the "pool" in the future to cover this past shortfall.  So who pays to cover the loss in the "pool"?....the rest of us in the form of higher premiums!

You are assuming that the post accident pilot is no longer a higher risk moving forward. The insurance industry assumes the opposite. And I think there are stats that prove that out. In their mind they’re removing a bad Apple from the bunch. 
 

-Robert 

[Bravoman]

23 minutes ago, Davidv said:

It could be worse, I just spoke with a friend who got a quoted $4K on his P210.  He has 25K hours and is a DPE.  Goes to show you what a high gear up rate does to prices.

He may also carry high liability limits like 2mm smooth. If that is the case that premium is not surprising especially if it includes hull coverage in an amount what you would expect with that type of aircraft. 

[Davidv]

3 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

He may also carry high liability limits like 2mm smooth. If that is the case that premium is not surprising especially if it includes hull coverage in an amount what you would expect with that type of aircraft. 

I don't believe so, and 170K hull value

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

You are correct in your assessment.  And this action will spiral up prices for another reason than the smaller population of pilots.  I suspect that most of these pilot owners who are being dropped for filing claims had not owned their plane long enough to pay total premiums over time equal to the cost of the accident claim loss.  Insurance is a "pooled risk" in which the insurers will charge total rates high enough to cover total claims while still earning a return. The action of the insurance company (especially if it is insurance companies in mass) to drop owners like this guarantees that the dropped owners will not pay any more premiums into the "pool" in the future to cover this past shortfall.  So who pays to cover the loss in the "pool"?....the rest of us in the form of higher premiums!

I think it will go like the medical market.   Prices will get really high to insure.   people on mooneyspace create a private pool that everyone pays into  Clubs self insure with a part of the dues to cover losses.   Insurance companies realize there is money to be made and lower their rates.    Start the process over.