M20R Annual Costs?

[dogbocks]

Hey guys, hate to be the guy that signs up for a forum and just blats a question out, but hopefully I will have more reason to hang out here in the near future. 

I am looking pretty seriously at getting into an M20R, and was hoping to have get a ballpark idea on maintenance and annual costs. I plan to chat with my FBO's AI soon also, but figured it would help to get some input from more than just one guy. 

About what does your annual typically cost if there isn't anything more than a minor squawk? 

Most M20Rs I have seen come with either TKS or A/C. How much does that add to an annual inspection? Seems like TKS would not be insignificant even if its working well?

The Cessna we own now needed some cylinders replaced shortly after purchasing it and a few other things. Everyone kept saying "yeah, your annuals will be $1000, easy" well they have all been $3k+ for various unexpected issues, so my financial adviser...er wife....would like to be a little less surprised and get some realistic ideas of maintenance with a much more complex airplane. 

thanks!

 

 

[Niko182]

39 minutes ago, dogbocks said:

Hey guys, hate to be the guy that signs up for a forum and just blats a question out, but hopefully I will have more reason to hang out here in the near future. 

I am looking pretty seriously at getting into an M20R, and was hoping to have get a ballpark idea on maintenance and annual costs. I plan to chat with my FBO's AI soon also, but figured it would help to get some input from more than just one guy. 

About what does your annual typically cost if there isn't anything more than a minor squawk? 

Most M20Rs I have seen come with either TKS or A/C. How much does that add to an annual inspection? Seems like TKS would not be insignificant even if its working well?

The Cessna we own now needed some cylinders replaced shortly after purchasing it and a few other things. Everyone kept saying "yeah, your annuals will be $1000, easy" well they have all been $3k+ for various unexpected issues, so my financial adviser...er wife....would like to be a little less surprised and get some realistic ideas of maintenance with a much more complex airplane. 

thanks!

 

 

Expect to pay about 25k for about 100 hours per year. That should include everything. Maybe a bit more of you have no retract and HP time.

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

Expect to pay about 25k for about 100 hours per year. That should include everything. Maybe a bit more of you have no retract and HP time.

By everything, you mean hangar, fuel, insurance....and maintenance?  

[Niko182]

20 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

By everything, you mean hangar, fuel, insurance....and maintenance?  

Yeah. Thats what the eagle comes out too including everything.

[Danb]

I have a 2005 Bravo, my annuals should be a little more due to the turbo, basically the same plane, Since new all work at MSC’s, annuals approximate $4-6000, I fix, have repaired all sqwaks. That’s 14 annuals I approximated 

[Guest]

Three to four days of labour for a 100 hour and annual inspection would be typical for a long body Mooney, plus consumables, snags extra.

Clarence

[larrynimmo]

On the other end of the spectrum....my 1981 M20J, first 100 hours a year is $17,000....all hours beyond that are $100.

 

200 hours cost $27,000.

this includes all expenses like annuals, repairs, engine reserve fund, tires, brakes oil, hanger and insurance.

does not include upgrades or any kind of mortgage.

[MIm20c]

Going into a purchase budgeting for only minor squawks can give your CFO a false sense of security.  I think if you ask owners who have cared for a long body over a decade you will find $25k a year is pretty average. At the beginning of the year 15k looks like a good estimate...at the end of the year you’re adding up over $25k worth of expenses.

[TGreen]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Expect to pay about 25k for about 100 hours per year. That should include everything. Maybe a bit more of you have no retract and HP time.

This is about right from my experience as well -- including fuel, oil, insurance, maintenance and property tax. 

[PT20J]

For comparison, my M20J owner-assist annual was 2 days and $1275. (I don't leave open squawks for annual so this was just the inspection cost).

I flew it 140 hours for a total expense of $20,916 or $14,940 per 100 hours.

Skip

 

 

[dogbocks]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should of been more specific: Annual inspection costs, not general annual costs, although it is good to hear the kind of numbers you guys are working with. 

I have these numbers already sorted out:

• Loan payment (obviously)
• Insurance
• Tie down (basically impossible to get a hangar in the Bay Area, but hey, at least there isn't any hail)
• Fuel/maintenance hourly cost
• RNAV data upgrades
• Potential upgrade costs
• I have a good understanding of what it can cost when things break from my previous experience as an aircraft owner (new battery, cylinder kits, windows, etc.)

What I was still wondering about was:

• annual inspections, sounds like those are about $2k-$4k with no major squawks
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with TKS
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with A/C
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with Oxygen system

Seems like M20Rs have some combination of the above systems.  Thanks!

 

[Niko182]

My annual basoc cost was 2600 bucks. My entire annual was right over 16k. First year so much more than usual.

[kmyfm20s]

There is no extra expense on the annual inspection for air conditioning unless you report something broken.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Dog.

If you don’t ask specific questions, you might get some wacky numbers...

Annual costs that are the big ones of ownership...

1) Insurance... more expensive the first year... 

2) Housing... depends on where she lives... my girl has a nice apartment in NJ... costs over 0.5amu per month.

3) Annual maintenance... the four day number given by our chief mechanic above is good...   more systems to review, more hours...

4) put some focus on the purchasing costs, and other first year costs... these are non-recurring...

Baseline of about 10amu... without flying it...

Then add upgrades, bling...

Overall the Long body cost me nearly what the short body costs were... for the same type of housing and maintenance...

I wasn’t sure if I should have been angry I paid so much for less bird... or happy things didn’t go up as much as I expected...

Don’t buy the plane to sit idle...

Be sure to plan for some transition training...

My ops costs are sketchy... i promised to not keep track if I didn’t need to... so far... so good!   

You already have Brand C numbers... why didn’t you share them?   Here is what I spend... would a LB Mooney be any different, where....

What version of a C do you have?

You may get things like... more cylinders, or a prop govenor, to go with your moving landing gear... or you have these already...?

Now that we have met... let’s put the cards on the table...

Glad to see your Finance administrator is on board...

Keep both eyes open while doing the math...

once you start down the operations costs you have two choices....

1) Fly efficiently... something you can’t do in brand C...

2) Fly in flaming dragon mode... this can get expensive when you push all the knobs forward and fly near 190kts...

If you have to do one and not the other... stay on the efficient side first, then wander into the speed runs...

CA is probably going to cost more...

Best regards,

-a-

[larrynimmo]

On your list of expense evaluations that you don’t have on your list is the incremental cost of engine wear.   With mine, I did the whole engine thing hoses, starter, alternator, prop rebuild, engine monitor, prop governor, lord mounts and labor and it was just about 50k.  With the realistic projected life of 2,000 hours I assess $25 an hour of cost to my flying expense.  With the 6 cylinders engine I imagine it’s more like 80k to do the whole thing.

[Jeff_S]

Here's a detailed look at costs to own my Ovation over the last 5 years.  Fuel and Maintenance/Repair are obvious. "Other" includes things like data base updates, WX/ForeFlight subscriptions, and other expenses directly related to owning the aircraft.  Taxes, Tie Downs and Insurance are a bit skewed in 2017-18 because I had hangars in two places until 2019, so use those other years to estimate.

Now that I have prepared this for you, I will promptly never look at it again so I'm not reminded!

[PMcClure]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:49 PM, dogbocks said:

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should of been more specific: Annual inspection costs, not general annual costs, although it is good to hear the kind of numbers you guys are working with. 

I have these numbers already sorted out:

• Loan payment (obviously)
• Insurance
• Tie down (basically impossible to get a hangar in the Bay Area, but hey, at least there isn't any hail)
• Fuel/maintenance hourly cost
• RNAV data upgrades
• Potential upgrade costs
• I have a good understanding of what it can cost when things break from my previous experience as an aircraft owner (new battery, cylinder kits, windows, etc.)

What I was still wondering about was:

• annual inspections, sounds like those are about $2k-$4k with no major squawks
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with TKS
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with A/C
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with Oxygen system

Seems like M20Rs have some combination of the above systems.  Thanks!

 

For my 2002 Ovation 2 with steam gauges and A/C:

My annual is typically $2000-2500 per year. Base price is $1800 plus any squawks. Never any expense with the A/C in 7 years of ownership. But I keep expecting  From a previous plane, I recall the O2 required testing every 5 and 10 years for pressure. But don't recall anything else. 

I plan on $100 per hour in direct costs, $200 for all in costs (including depreciation, insurance, etc... but not major maintenance). Who knows what it actually costs, I try not to add it all up!

I fly about 50-120 hours per year. 

Other than the engine, the biggest maintenance cost is the KI 256 AI and KFC 225 roll servos. Plan on $2000-4000 for each of these every 2 years. 

[Gagarin]

I must be the cheap guy. For my 1982 M20J at KFXE

Assisted annual        $1,000

Hangar $710/month $8,520

Fuel/oil for 100hrs     $6,000

Total                           $15,520

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

7 minutes ago, Gagarin said:

I must be the cheap guy. For my 1982 M20J at KFXE

Assisted annual        $1,000

Hangar $710/month $8,520

Fuel/oil for 100hrs     $6,000

Total                           $15,520

 

 

You’re missing insurance, so I assume it’s +$16500 all in, unless we include database updates cost, then it’s more like +$17,000.

[StevenL757]

On 1/13/2020 at 3:47 PM, dogbocks said:

Hey guys, hate to be the guy that signs up for a forum and just blats a question out, but hopefully I will have more reason to hang out here in the near future. 

I am looking pretty seriously at getting into an M20R, and was hoping to have get a ballpark idea on maintenance and annual costs. I plan to chat with my FBO's AI soon also, but figured it would help to get some input from more than just one guy. 

About what does your annual typically cost if there isn't anything more than a minor squawk? 

Most M20Rs I have seen come with either TKS or A/C. How much does that add to an annual inspection? Seems like TKS would not be insignificant even if its working well?

The Cessna we own now needed some cylinders replaced shortly after purchasing it and a few other things. Everyone kept saying "yeah, your annuals will be $1000, easy" well they have all been $3k+ for various unexpected issues, so my financial adviser...er wife....would like to be a little less surprised and get some realistic ideas of maintenance with a much more complex airplane.

I'll assume by "annual costs", you mean "annual operating costs".  From my standpoint...putting 150-200 hours per year on my Ovation and owning for the last 10+ years, here's a breakdown...

• Depending on the condition of the airplane when you first purchase it, plan on $5,000 - $7,000 for your first annual.  After that, and depending on what needs done every year, my annual inspections have dropped to, and remained, around $3,000 to $4,000 yearly.  I take several days off every year to do an owner-assisted annual.  To this date, I do around 70% of the annual under my IA's watchful eye.  You'd be surprised how much you can learn
• Given I accomplish all the "red" (airworthy) and "yellow" (recommended/proactive) items every annual, I have little to no MX issues throughout the year...barring anything that happens to come up.  That allows me to spend only on the "green" stuff (desirable, but least-important...lighting upgrades, paint touch-ups, cosmetic stuff, etc.) throughout the year
• TKS adds little to nothing on a yearly basis as long as you exercise the system every 30 days per the book.  If, however, any pumps needs repairing or replacing, add that to your annual list.  I don't have A/C on my airplane, so can't comment there
• Oxygen hydrostatic testing on the kevlar bottles is roughly $500 every 5 years.  A new kevlar bottle every 15 years (they go EOSL at 15 years) runs anywhere from $1600 to $2400 depending on where you procure the bottle
• I won't comment on any loan payment you may or may not have, but for hangarage I spend $725 monthly for a non-heated "T" with electricity.  My yearly insurance is under $2500 for a $280k hull value with a $1MM smooth limit through a top underwriter
• Add AVGAS costs for between 150 and 200 flight hours to the numbers

Given your last paragraph, I would still build some contingency into the numbers I gave you.  Although my airplane is pristine - inside and out (as well as the engine) - my IA and I can ALWAYS find things to put on the list, so make sure you build in extra each year...and throughout the year.

Pretty generic information I know, but let me know if this is helpful.

Steve

[larrynimmo]

1 hour ago, Gagarin said:

I must be the cheap guy. For my 1982 M20J at KFXE

Assisted annual        $1,000

Hangar $710/month $8,520

Fuel/oil for 100hrs     $6,000

Total                           $15,520

 

 

What about tires and brakes, insurance, and engine fund?

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

2 hours ago, Gagarin said:

I must be the cheap guy. For my 1982 M20J at KFXE

Assisted annual        $1,000

Hangar $710/month $8,520

Fuel/oil for 100hrs     $6,000

Total                           $15,520

 

 

Cheap!?!   Your hangar costs more than my hangar, insurance, and annual, plus 30 hours worth of fuel!

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, Gagarin said:

I must be the cheap guy. For my 1982 M20J at KFXE

Assisted annual        $1,000

I have annuals around that price range but it means the IA doesn't touch a wrench. You do all the wrenching, lubing yourself and he's literally just inspecting (including your work).  I always have the timing box set up, etc so I just show him compression and timing.

-Robert

[Guest]

On 1/14/2020 at 12:49 AM, dogbocks said:

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should of been more specific: Annual inspection costs, not general annual costs, although it is good to hear the kind of numbers you guys are working with. 

I have these numbers already sorted out:

• Loan payment (obviously)
• Insurance
• Tie down (basically impossible to get a hangar in the Bay Area, but hey, at least there isn't any hail)
• Fuel/maintenance hourly cost
• RNAV data upgrades
• Potential upgrade costs
• I have a good understanding of what it can cost when things break from my previous experience as an aircraft owner (new battery, cylinder kits, windows, etc.)

What I was still wondering about was:

• annual inspections, sounds like those are about $2k-$4k with no major squawks
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with TKS
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with A/C
• Any added costs (annual inspection or otherwise) associated with Oxygen system

Seems like M20Rs have some combination of the above systems.  Thanks!

 

There is a small cost to the TKS system during annual your shop should be running the system as part of the inspection, so some fluid will be used and the shop will need cleaning afterward.

Air-conditioning, like your car only needs work when it’s broken.

Oxygen system will likely have a composite cylinder which has a 5 year hydrostatic test and a 15 year hard life.  Oxygen will need to be replenished based on usage rate and leak rate in the system.

Clarence

[Mark89114]

Don't ask me.....i throw all of the receipts in a box and dont think about it.  It costs what it costs.  I am also single and can do whatever i want, when i want!