LED Replacement for Whelen Model #70303 Light

[OSUAV8TER]

2 hours ago, N231BN said:

If everyone orders the LEDs based on their aircraft voltage they will be fine. For the 28v airplanes, you can leave the resistor as it will only be dropping about 1 volt or just bypass it.

On the Ovation I just had in the shop the resistor is not in a convenient location to remove but the wiring is easily accessible.

After I sent that email, this is the preliminary advice that was provided to me by Whelen. They are currently working to clarify that with their engineering and hopefully I will have that soon. I may have jumped the gun a little bit so I apologize for that.

[OSUAV8TER]

I have confirmed with Whelen that the 28V LED lights will work with the 28V electrical systems that have the resistor installed. So 14V electrical systems get the 14V version, 28V systems get the 28V versions. I will be sending out an email to collect that information to get the proper count. These will be getting manufactured soon.

[OSUAV8TER]

I've updated the weblink for deposits so you can select 14V and 28V. I have four more pre-ordered and then I'm placing a new purchase order for more. Orders are filled in the order that they are received and we're targeting February. 

ttps://www.gallagheraviationllc.com/WAT-Mooney-Recognition-Light-Pre-Order-Deposit-10_p_140.html <-- Pre-order here

[N231BN]

Order sent in for a customer, thanks.

[OSUAV8TER]

2 hours ago, N231BN said:

Order sent in for a customer, thanks.

Received.

[OSUAV8TER]

Okay all purchase orders with Whelen have been correct to account for 28V and 14V versions. Like 98% of the lamps are going to be 28V. If you have a 28V electrical system you need the 28V lamp (regardless of the resistor) and if you have a 14V version you need the 14V lamp. I intend to stock these when they come out but you can preorder them at the links below. Lights are shipped in the order they are received and I will start working on collecting the remaining balance due when I have an absolute clear delivery date from Whelen, which right now is mid February. 

Mooney LED Recognition Light Pre-order Deposit (10%) <-- Make sure you select the correct voltage in the drop down menu when you click on this.

[rbp]

Thanks for keeping us all well informed! 

[PeteMc]

@OSUAV8TER  When you're talking to Whelen, ask them about the heat.  I'm *assuming* since it's an LED that we'll be able to keep the Recog. Lights on even on the ground since they *should* be cooler. 

But depending how they're making them and how many LEDs are actually in the "light" to create enough Lumens, they may still put out enough heat to melt the wingtip lens on the ground (like the old tungsten bulbs).

[rbp]

12 hours ago, PeteMc said:

@OSUAV8TER  When you're talking to Whelen, ask them about the heat.  I'm *assuming* since it's an LED that we'll be able to keep the Recog. Lights on even on the ground since they *should* be cooler. 

But depending how they're making them and how many LEDs are actually in the "light" to create enough Lumens, they may still put out enough heat to melt the wingtip lens on the ground (like the old tungsten bulbs).

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

 

According to LEDs Magazine:  "crucially, heat is produced within the LED device itself, due to the inefficiency of the semiconductor processes that generate light.  The wall-plug efficiency (optical power out divided by electrical power in) of LED packages is typically in the region of 5-40%, meaning that somewhere between 60 and 95% of the input power is lost as heat."

https://www.ledsmagazine.com/leds-ssl-design/thermal/article/16696536/fact-or-fiction-leds-dont-produce-heat
 

[rbp]

37 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

According to LEDs Magazine:  "crucially, heat is produced within the LED device itself, due to the inefficiency of the semiconductor processes that generate light.  The wall-plug efficiency (optical power out divided by electrical power in) of LED packages is typically in the region of 5-40%, meaning that somewhere between 60 and 95% of the input power is lost as heat."

https://www.ledsmagazine.com/leds-ssl-design/thermal/article/16696536/fact-or-fiction-leds-dont-produce-heat
 

William Kelvin has entered the chat 
 

With LEDs 1/10th power consumption of incandescent, it’s not much heat

 

[PeteMc]

@rbp  Yes, in theory they're should not be much heat.  But I'm guessing you haven't been around many LEDs as some still put out a lot of heat.  Has to do with the way they tie the LEDs together, the diode used and how they are sealed.  You'd be surprised how hot some of them get after they've been on for a while.

ADDED: Granted newer LEDs are generally much better, but there is still a chance they generate and/or do not dissipate heat very well.  Always worth checking.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by PeteMc

[OSUAV8TER]

18 hours ago, PeteMc said:

@OSUAV8TER  When you're talking to Whelen, ask them about the heat.  I'm *assuming* since it's an LED that we'll be able to keep the Recog. Lights on even on the ground since they *should* be cooler. 

But depending how they're making them and how many LEDs are actually in the "light" to create enough Lumens, they may still put out enough heat to melt the wingtip lens on the ground (like the old tungsten bulbs).

From my own practical experience the heat that is generated from LED lamps usually is found on the back side of the lamp on the heat sink. Depending on the diode placement, circuitry, power, etc. dictates the amount heat. Not trying to knock them but AeroLED has awful thermal design characteristics. When an LED heats up too much it will start to dim. I took a laser thermometer to the back and it was getting over 200 degrees. Not much heat on the front end (of the AeroLED or others). You will be fine running this during ground ops. If I had these in my aircraft I would run these day and night and consider putting them on a pulse mode for VFR recognition.

[rbp]

21 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

From my own practical experience the heat that is generated from LED lamps usually is found on the back side of the lamp on the heat sink. Depending on the diode placement, circuitry, power, etc. dictates the amount heat. Not trying to knock them but AeroLED has awful thermal design characteristics. When an LED heats up too much it will start to dim. I took a laser thermometer to the back and it was getting over 200 degrees. Not much heat on the front end (of the AeroLED or others). You will be fine running this during ground ops. If I had these in my aircraft I would run these day and night and consider putting them on a pulse mode for VFR recognition.

How many watts do these LED recogs consumer? 

[Marc_B]

3 minutes ago, rbp said:

How many watts do these LED recogs consumer? 

@rbp According to sales documentation: 0.12 - 0.16A at 14V.  Half that at 28V?  So what is that...1.7-2.2 watts?

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Marc_B said:

@rbp According to sales documentation: 0.12 - 0.16A at 14V.  Half that at 28V?  So what is that...1.7-2.2 watts?

 

That plastic lens gonna melt like a candle! 

 

[amillet]

It already does with the projector bulb. After replacing a lens I use the recognition lights sparingly. I ordered the soon to be LED replacement with the understanding that they wouldn’t melt the lens if I forgot to turn them off after landing 

[OSUAV8TER]

1 minute ago, amillet said:

It already does with the projector bulb. After replacing a lens I use the recognition lights sparingly. I ordered the soon to be LED replacement with the understanding that they wouldn’t melt the lens if I forgot to turn them off after landing 

Yes, while I can't say definitively, I don't think they are going to melt based upon the technology. I used to have really high powered PAR-46 incandescent bulbs in the wings of my Bonanza that will melt the lenses if left on too long while not in flight. Even the most powerful LED lamps do not melt them now. On the T-6 Texan there is a limitation for running the landing light on the ground. I think it is like 6 seconds according to my warbird buddy. 

[rbp]

the melting point of polyethylene is 230F. if its 60F, that's 170F increase in temperature 

for 3 watts of power, it would take 137 (continuous) minutes to heat 4 ounces of poly from 60F to 230F.

LEDs recogs are not going to melt the lenses

 

[Pinecone]

Covers are probably polycarbonate, not polyethylene.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Covers are probably polycarbonate, not polyethylene.

and you think that makes a material difference?

[carusoam]

Try again folks… three’s a charm…

I don’t think we have seen polycarbonate in Mooney windows yet…

PMMA or simply acrylic is our usual (poor) choice for clear plastic…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(methyl_methacrylate)
 

Polycarbonate would be much nicer… over the 50s era plastic…

Let me know if I missed a cool change… 

Best regards,

-a-

[OSUAV8TER]

Whelen lamp lenses are polycarbonate.

 

[rbp]

the point is that even if the specific heat capacity of the lens is off by a factor fo 10, its still 13.7 (137/10) minutes before it reaches melting temperature 

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, rbp said:

and you think that makes a material difference?

I don't know.  Do you?

14 minutes to melt the lenses is well within the range of serious damage leaving them on for the taxi. You don't need to get the melting point to warp the lenses.  And they are $273 each to replace them.

137 minutes not so likely.