midlifeflyer Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Ibra said: Yes, usually the case for avionics installations or additional approved kit but for a landing gear? Landing gear troubleshooting issue has to be in the POH (never heard of a gear installation suplement in the AFM) Pretty sure he was commenting in my post which had nothing to do with landing gear issues, Quote
GDGR Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/27/2019 at 1:14 PM, Amelia said: Well, thank you all!! My face is red, and my problem is solved. Yes, I do, in fact have a checklist. I even used it, seems to me. But somehow, somewhen, grabbed a bag out of the back seat, and it never dawned on me to check on that switch. Dang.But at least I don’t have to send for a new motor. Now I know a new thing!! So, thank you all very, very much. (Now MImi slinks away in mortification.) We all have a bad day now and again. When I was completing my Atlhetic Therapy degree, I remember being in the clinic, where a female basketball student/player needed ultrasound on a sensitive area... instructor said she could perform the ultrasound herself for clinic hours. instructor, and a few other students sat and chatted, while the player was behind a curtain. After about 15 minutes, we hear a “does this feel like this is taking too long?” (It’s a 5 minute ultrasound application). I finally asked “did you push start on the machine?” Shortly after, you could hear the audible “BEEP” of the start button being pressed. Quote
midlifeflyer Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, skykrawler said: Whatever....... Yep. That's what a POH looks like, (when the serial number is entered anyway) Edited November 29, 2019 by midlifeflyer Quote
RobertGary1 Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: A POH is a serial number referenced document. A "POH" is a GAMA-standardized format (GAMA Specification No 1) created in the mid-1970s for an aircraft manual which contains the AFM. You are perhaps thinking of a "PIM," which is a generalized POH. Yes, people use the term POH to mean both POH and PIM, but I was referring to the official, airframe-specific document. The poh must state it includes the AFM to quality. Otherwise it’s a generic POH. the approved manual will have a cover sheet listing the serial number of the aircraft signed by the manufacture. Ultimately as a cfi giving instruction in the plane you’re looking for that signed cover sheet to ensure it’s the document required ”If “POH” is used in the main title, a statement must be included on the title page indicating that sections of the document are FAA approved as the AFM.”https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/11_phak_ch9.pdf Quote
midlifeflyer Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: The poh must state it includes the AFM to quality. Otherwise it’s a generic POH. the approved manual will have a cover sheet listing the serial number of the aircraft signed by the manufacture. Ultimately as a cfi giving instruction in the plane you’re looking for that signed cover sheet to ensure it’s the document required ”If “POH” is used in the main title, a statement must be included on the title page indicating that sections of the document are FAA approved as the AFM.”https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/11_phak_ch9.pdf True. And a real POH does. Actually, so do most unreal POH. It's the serial number which makes the difference. Edited November 29, 2019 by midlifeflyer Quote
PT20J Posted November 29, 2019 Report Posted November 29, 2019 12 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: A POH is a serial number referenced document. A "POH" is a GAMA-standardized format (GAMA Specification No 1) created in the mid-1970s for an aircraft manual which contains the AFM. You are perhaps thinking of a "PIM," which is a generalized POH. Yes, people use the term POH to mean both POH and PIM, but I was referring to the official, airframe-specific document. Yep, this is another thing the FAA has made confusing. One way to think of it is that the FAA requires an AFM, and the GAMA POH format is a standardized way to meet that requirement. Over the years I've head people argue that you can't deviate from the manual (frequently checklists are the topic of discussion) because the AFM is "FAA Approved." Actually, the only part of the AFM/POH that requires FAA approval is the operating limitations. (A Mooney is Level 2 (2-6 seats), low-speed (design cruise speed <= 250 KCAS). §23.2620 Airplane flight manual. The applicant must provide an Airplane Flight Manual that must be delivered with each airplane. (a) The Airplane Flight Manual must contain the following information— (1) Airplane operating limitations; (2) Airplane operating procedures; (3) Performance information; (4) Loading information; and (5) Other information that is necessary for safe operation because of design, operating, or handling characteristics. (b) The following sections of the Airplane Flight Manual must be approved by the FAA in a manner specified by the administrator— (1) For low-speed, level 1 and 2 airplanes, those portions of the Airplane Flight Manual containing the information specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section; and (2) For high-speed level 1 and 2 airplanes and all level 3 and 4 airplanes, those portions of the Airplane Flight Manual containing the information specified in paragraphs (a)(1) thru (a)(4) of this section. Quote
Rick Junkin Posted December 26, 2019 Report Posted December 26, 2019 On 11/29/2019 at 3:31 PM, PT20J said: §23.2620 Airplane flight manual. The applicant must provide an Airplane Flight Manual that must be delivered with each airplane. (a) The Airplane Flight Manual must contain the following information— (1) Airplane operating limitations; (2) Airplane operating procedures; (3) Performance information; (4) Loading information; and (5) Other information that is necessary for safe operation because of design, operating, or handling characteristics. (b) The following sections of the Airplane Flight Manual must be approved by the FAA in a manner specified by the administrator— (1) For low-speed, level 1 and 2 airplanes, those portions of the Airplane Flight Manual containing the information specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section; and (2) For high-speed level 1 and 2 airplanes and all level 3 and 4 airplanes, those portions of the Airplane Flight Manual containing the information specified in paragraphs (a)(1) thru (a)(4) of this section. Thank you for this! I've added it to my Instructor Clue Bag for future reference. @Amelia And Mimi, so glad it worked out well for you! Your experience is one more link toward making us all better. Thanks for sharing! Cheers, Rick Quote
bradp Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 And to further confuse matters, Part 23 is not applicable to planes that are not certified under part 23- FWIW. Quote
Hank Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 1 hour ago, bradp said: And to further confuse matters, Part 23 is not applicable to planes that are not certified under part 23- FWIW. Like ours! Yay for CAR 3!! Go Vintage Mooneys! 1 Quote
PT20J Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 1 hour ago, bradp said: And to further confuse matters, Part 23 is not applicable to planes that are not certified under part 23- FWIW. Good point!! The TCDS defines the manual requirements. The Mooney TCDS Note 13 states that "From 1976 model year and ON "Pilots Operating Handbooks" have replaced "Owners Manuals." The flight manual provisions in CAR 3 paragraph 3.777 would seem to require more of the manual to be FAA approved than the language of Part 23, but the FAA may have made exception for "Level 2" aircraft. That was before my time . However, Mooney made it pretty clear what is FAA approved in the AFM/POH by including FAA APPROVED in the footer of the Limitations section. No other sections contain this footer. Mooney TCDS 2A3 Rev 52 dtd 9DEC10.pdf CAR-PART3.pdf Skip Quote
Vlakvark Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 Not a good feeling. Happened today leaving ND for KRAP. Was glad when the tower told me “look’s like the gear is down”. Could have ruin my little holiday. Hope everyone had a good Xmas. Quote
Tx_Aggie Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Just found this post. After a fuel stop and then on to final destination While enroute I found my gear down with the breaker out. I put the breaker back in, latched the emergency gear latch back in place and landed. While on the ground the latch kept popping up. Is this just a spring issue or is this something more serious? Thanks! Quote
carusoam Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Aggie, I think you may be having a one-off type of event... I don’t recall much other than back seaters accidentally kicking it... Give it a good inspection to see if anything got damaged... Take a pic and post it... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote
LANCECASPER Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said: Just found this post. After a fuel stop and then on to final destination While enroute I found my gear down with the breaker out. I put the breaker back in, latched the emergency gear latch back in place and landed. While on the ground the latch kept popping up. Is this just a spring issue or is this something more serious? Thanks! If the latch keeps popping it's something mechanical, like the spring or a foreign object in there. On an Ovation that I had briefly, that happened shortly after I bought it - the previous owners son used to eat Chex Mix in the back seat. There was a cup full of Chex Mix there and around the Trim Wheel ( I could have had a General Mills induced trim failure.) This was just the amount in the trim wheel and didn't include what was around the gear latch. Also there were zip tie fragments. I unscrewed and pulled the cover off to get it all cleaned up. Now I pull this off at every annual to make sure there aren't any pens or other foreign objects down there. 1 Quote
Tx_Aggie Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: If the latch keeps popping it's something mechanical, like the spring or a foreign object in there. On an Ovation that I had briefly, that happened shortly after I bought it - the previous owners son used to eat Chex Mix in the back seat. There was a cup full of Chex Mix there and around the Trim Wheel ( I could have had a General Mills induced trim failure.) This was just the amount in the trim wheel and didn't include what was around the gear latch. Also there were zip tie fragments. I unscrewed and pulled the cover off to get it all cleaned up. Now I pull this off at every annual to make sure there aren't any pens or other foreign objects down there. Yikes that's a lot of crap! You found that underneath the carpet? Below is a photo I took yesterday of the latch up. Makes me think the latch hoop or, not sure what to call it but the hole the latch connects and locks into might be a little to angled? I plan to have it looked at tomorrow. Quote
carusoam Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 @Tx_Aggie Looks like you might be missing the tab that fits in the square hole... Know what I mean..? That would explain it getting out of the locked position... Got a pic of it locked with the cover over the handle? There should be a tab A in slot B sort of arrangement... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote
Tx_Aggie Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Just now, carusoam said: @Tx_Aggie Looks like you might be missing the tab that fits in the square hole... Know what I mean..? That would explain it getting out of the locked position... Best regards, -a- I'm curious to see what other J's look like. My photo is not the best, but on the bottom side of the latch, on either side, the underside edges are in sort of a curved/hooked position and appear to 'hook' into the slot to 'latch'. I know this is different than the Ovation i've flown in the past. Any other J/Ks out there to confirm this? Quote
Tx_Aggie Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Arrows showing what I'm talking about. Quote
carusoam Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 On my 94 O... There is a tab on the bottom blue arrow... To match the slot in the top blue arrow... If the tab extends out through the slot... simple test for go/NoGo for ready for T/O... Always a check list item with back seaters... Best regards, -a- Quote
LANCECASPER Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said: Yikes that's a lot of crap! You found that underneath the carpet? Below is a photo I took yesterday of the latch up. Makes me think the latch hoop or, not sure what to call it but the hole the latch connects and locks into might be a little to angled? I plan to have it looked at tomorrow. On the R (Ovation) and M (Bravo) models there's a plastic cover that goes over the area from the emergency gear extension latch all the way forward including the fuel selector. The stuff was lodged down there. Not a good picture but item 25 is called a "Center Console" Quote
Andy95W Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 12 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said: Arrows showing what I'm talking about. That's the weirdest looking Johnson bar up lock I've ever seen. Quote
PT20J Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Anthony is correct w.r.t. blue arrows. These things get stepped on all the time. It looks like your front tab got bent aft so the slot no longer engages the front of the lever. Just bend the tab forward enough so that the ramp on the bottom of the lever pushes the tab forward as you push the lever down until the front of the lever engages the slot in the tab to lock it down. To engage the emergency gear system, push the tab forward to release the lever and pull the lever up. The lever engages the pull cord mechanism but does not disengage the motor which is why it pops the breaker. Skip Quote
Tx_Aggie Posted August 23, 2020 Report Posted August 23, 2020 Gents - thanks for the help. After your comments plus reading through the M20J maintenance catalogue and the POH, I was better able to understand how the correct mechanism works. I went out to the hanger, simply pushed the tab forward and the front of the latch fit perfectly into the slot. Happy to find an easy fix after spending quite a bit on panel upgrades/fixes!! Thanks for the help here. 1 Quote
201Steve Posted August 24, 2020 Report Posted August 24, 2020 On 11/28/2019 at 5:46 PM, steingar said: Johnson bar for the win! Don’t be that guy 1 Quote
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