takair Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 I asked my local shop to build up a narrow deck jug, but his reliable source is out. Apparently Lycoming back ordered for months. Any suggestions for ether a tagged jug or a first run rebuildable. Was hoping to have one in hand before pulling one of mine for rebuild. Quote
drapo Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 Just went through the major overhaul process up here in Canada and, contrary to what I thought, the shop had a good supply of overhauled cylinder assemblies. The cylinders part number of the IO360A1A is the same as the IO540 AE1A5 (O5K21120) and these engines are OEM on the fuel-injected Robinson R44 and we have a lot of those flying up here. Lots of R44 have low hours when the calendar calls for mandatory overhaul and most order new cylinders. You can get first run overhauled cylinders that have less than 1000TTSN! Maybe worth looking into! Quote
Marauder Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, takair said: I asked my local shop to build up a narrow deck jug, but his reliable source is out. Apparently Lycoming back ordered for months. Any suggestions for ether a tagged jug or a first run rebuildable. Was hoping to have one in hand before pulling one of mine for rebuild. Air Power had stock when I ordered a new nitride Lycoming cylinder at the beginning of September. Immediate shipment. Maybe they have stock of rebuilts. Another option is to look for a quick turn shop like Kent Heller at Heller Aero Services at Pottstown. Let me know if you need their contact information. I will be sending my removed cylinder to have one on the shelf in case I lose another one. Edited October 24, 2019 by Marauder Quote
Ragsf15e Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Marauder said: Air Power had stock when I ordered a new nitride Lycoming cylinder at the beginning of September. Immediate shipment. Maybe they have stock of rebuilts. Another option is to look for a quick turn shop like Kent Heller at Heller Aero Services at Pottstown. Let me know if you need their contact information. I will be sending my removed cylinder to have one on the shelf in case I lose another one. I thought Lycoming new cylinders for the IO-360A1A only came in steel? I know you can get new TCM cylinders for our A1As in both nickel and steel, but didn’t know Lycoming had anything other than steel? The TCM ones intrigue me because they have the nickel and are cheaper. Not sure about being in stock though... Quote
Marauder Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 51 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: I thought Lycoming new cylinders for the IO-360A1A only came in steel? I know you can get new TCM cylinders for our A1As in both nickel and steel, but didn’t know Lycoming had anything other than steel? The TCM ones intrigue me because they have the nickel and are cheaper. Not sure about being in stock though... Quote
takair Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, drapo said: Just went through the major overhaul process up here in Canada and, contrary to what I thought, the shop had a good supply of overhauled cylinder assemblies. The cylinders part number of the IO360A1A is the same as the IO540 AE1A5 (O5K21120) and these engines are OEM on the fuel-injected Robinson R44 and we have a lot of those flying up here. Lots of R44 have low hours when the calendar calls for mandatory overhaul and most order new cylinders. You can get first run overhauled cylinders that have less than 1000TTSN! Maybe worth looking into! Thanks. I think those may be for the wide deck. Narrow deck seem to be harder to get. Quote
carusoam Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 Rob, Siri has humorously respelled your post... -a- 1 Quote
takair Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Marauder said: Air Power had stock when I ordered a new nitride Lycoming cylinder at the beginning of September. Immediate shipment. Maybe they have stock of rebuilts. Another option is to look for a quick turn shop like Kent Heller at Heller Aero Services at Pottstown. Let me know if you need their contact information. I will be sending my removed cylinder to have one on the shelf in case I lose another one. Thanks. You may have the wide deck too. Just talked to AirPower and they confirmed the back order since May. I ordered steel TCM (old ECI) since I didnt want to wait. Quote
takair Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Posted October 24, 2019 59 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: I thought Lycoming new cylinders for the IO-360A1A only came in steel? I know you can get new TCM cylinders for our A1As in both nickel and steel, but didn’t know Lycoming had anything other than steel? The TCM ones intrigue me because they have the nickel and are cheaper. Not sure about being in stock though... I have the old ECI NicCrome, which may be the equivalent since TCM bought them. Went with steel instead. Figure I didn’t make TBO with this one. Quote
takair Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Posted October 24, 2019 37 minutes ago, jetdriven said: Nitrided steel. Thanks. Went with the old tried and true steel. Good excuse to fly enough to keep the rust off. Your vote helped. Quote
Marauder Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 24 minutes ago, takair said: Thanks. Went with the old tried and true steel. Good excuse to fly enough to keep the rust off. Your vote helped. I will say one thing about the nitride steel cylinders, they do break-in pretty quickly. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, jetdriven said: Nitrided steel. Ahh, thanks! Quote
drapo Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, takair said: Thanks. I think those may be for the wide deck. Narrow deck seem to be harder to get. OOPS! Sorry, I thought all M20E's used a wide deck engine Quote
takair Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Posted October 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, drapo said: OOPS! Sorry, I thought all M20E's used a wide deck engine Turns out an A1A could have a wide deck or narrow deck....just to make things more confusing. 1 Quote
1964-M20E Posted October 24, 2019 Report Posted October 24, 2019 OK when I had my 64E it was the narrow deck. My 67F I believe is the wide deck????? I asked my mechanic year ago ho to tell the difference but now I can't remember. How do you tell the difference between narrow deck and wide deck? Quote
Ragsf15e Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 An “A” at the end of your engine serial number indicates wide deck. Narrow deck is an older/original design. Quote
takair Posted October 25, 2019 Author Report Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, 1964-M20E said: OK when I had my 64E it was the narrow deck. My 67F I believe is the wide deck????? I asked my mechanic year ago ho to tell the difference but now I can't remember. How do you tell the difference between narrow deck and wide deck? The narrow deck have steel plates and internal wrenching nuts holding the jugs in place. Wide deck have normal looking hex nuts. Quote
takair Posted October 27, 2019 Author Report Posted October 27, 2019 The saga continues. Pulled one jug today, then found oil in plugs on #4, so pulled that one too and found interesting ring damage. See pictures. Looks like they use a plating process and the plating flakes, or used to. I think it explains a lot of what I’ve been seeing. So, these are ECI CermiNil jugs (2 silver, one aqua stripe). Looked at old ECI bulletins and found that this was a problem with the rings at one time. Now that ECI is no longer (part of Continental) it is not clear if there are replacement rings. Also, the honing process for CermiNil is unique. Thinking I am going to do 4 new jugs and figure this out later, unless someone has run into this and can point to the right ring kit? Regarding the picture...the black area should have plating over it. You can also see some peculiar cracking along the rest of the ring. By the way...compressions were good and you can’t see this in a borescope. Oil burn had gotten terrible and the oil turned dark in a matter of hours. 1 Quote
M20F Posted August 21, 2020 Report Posted August 21, 2020 On 10/24/2019 at 7:21 PM, 1964-M20E said: My 67F I believe is the wide deck????? I asked my mechanic year ago ho to tell the difference but now I can't remember. 67 has the wide deck, how you tell is that your wallet is twice as small. Quote
Bunti Posted August 21, 2020 Report Posted August 21, 2020 Be careful. All Mooneys with the IO360 A1A engine are approved for wide and narrow deck versions of the engine. The 67F should have come with a wide deck engine. But if you have to replace the engine with another overhauled one, you can end up with a narrow deck on the same airplane. And to make it even more complicated: If you keep your wide deck sump with the data plate and take most of the rest of the parts from a narrow deck engine, you have still the serial number which represents a wide deck engine on a narrow deck engine. Before ordering new cylinders, it is a good idea to visually confirm if it is wide or narrow deck. 2 1 Quote
carusoam Posted August 22, 2020 Report Posted August 22, 2020 Some of the finest Mooney details that come out in conversation... Great details Bunti! Go MS! Best regards, -a- Quote
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