Which sacrifices to make when buying a plane?

[Auburn02]

This is a question about airplane buying in general, but has some Mooney specific items as well. As I've mentioned before I'm beginning to explore the idea of purchasing a plane, and for the money I have (or am willing) to spend and my mission I know I want a Mooney. That said, I still need to sit in and fly one before I can make that decision official. For all know I'll absolutely hate the feel of the things in the first 10 minutes, but I sure hope not

Where it gets tricky is I have a small list of specifics items I want in an airplane. Then again, who isn't? Here's the list: M20E or M20F (J is just stretching the budget too far), GNS430 or GNS530, autopilot w/altitude hold, and the 201 windshield/cowl. I guess it's not such a long list, but it's proving to be quite di

The question is on which items do you hold fast to your list and on which do you give? I guess my list probably isn't even all that long compared to some others, but it's still proving to be quite difficult to find a plane that meets all of the criteria. For that reason I understand I might need to concede an item or two to get the others, and then look at doing them later myself. So where would you concede?

I think I already know my answer, and it's on the 201 mods. I've already told myself and my girlfriend (wife-to-be) that if for some reason we came across a great plane for a great price but it didn't have a GNS430, I'd add it. So if I'm that adamant about it, I guess it just makes sense to really focus on the planes with that and consider upgrading the airframe later.

[KSMooniac]

I'd say sacrifice the speed mods first...at the end of the day an extra 5-10 knots isn't going to matter much on a trip time nearly as much as the safety benefits (ie workload reduction) of a GNS530W or 430W + an autopilot. 

I started out looking exactly like you are and thought I couldn't get into a J.  I wanted an E/F with a modern instrument layout, IFR GPS, speed mods and hopefully an autopilot.  My J became available locally and had all that and more, plus it had a great history and was a turn-key aircraft, so I stretched my budget to get it.  (with a larger loan/longer payment period than I initially planned)  Getting an E/F with any functional autopilot, much less something modern like an STEC, will be difficult in my opinion. 

First and foremost, though, is to buy the best airframe you can that has flown and been maintained regularly to a high standard.  You can always add avionics and improve the cosmetics as time and budget allow, although it is still financially smarter to let the previous owner do those things. 

One other thing to keep in mind...the replacements to the GNS-500/400 series boxes are in development at Garmin right now, but the release date is unknown at this point.  I would guess perhaps in the next 18-36 months...which means there will likely be some bargains to be had on the current generation.  I wouldn't hesitate to install one then because IMO there are so many in the field that support should not be an issue for a long, long time.  So, if you find one with everything but a 430 or 530, perhaps you can be patient and add it down the road...

[Amelia]

The non-negotiables, imo, should be the things that can't be easily changed or added. A good autopilot. Insignificant damage history, and careful maintenance. No corrosion. Reasonably low-time engine and prop-- all in just about that order. The avionics are wonderful, but there's so much stuff out there now, that if you had to make do with a dated panel for a while as you chose the perfect things to put in the new-and-improved panel, it would be OK.  I love my 2-year-old G-530- but seriously-, it's a frill, and the updates are surprisingly pricey. I flew this bird for at least 18 years without one, and you can make do for a year or two, as well. Consider the possible merits of learning the airplane's own systems and quirks before you add another learning curve. You can easily add the fancy panel-mount GPS, if you find a truly beautiful airplane without it.

I really, truly think you NEED a good autopilot in a cross-country type airplane as slippery as a Mooney. It vastly reduces pilot fatigue and tendency to disorientation. Seems to me that it offers a huge safety factor, whether one is trying to reach a hat that's in the backseat, or to repeatedly look down at approach plates, and up hoping to see a runway on a bumpy approach. 

[The-sky-captain]

The main things I looked at other than the overall health of the plane was an  STEC auto pilot with altitude hold, a 430W and an engine monitor. I bought the plane to take my IFR lessons in so the a/p and the 430W were a must for me (New generation pilot:) The engine monitor in my opinion is worth it's weight in gold and a must on any plane I will buy in the future. Take your time and try to enjoy the process. Good luck.

[N207LS]

Scott gives some good advice... 

I think that I would want to find the best airframe/engine first (low time SMOH with good use though - no hangar queens), NDH or minimal damage only (that you can confirm the repairs were done correctly, preferrably a long time ago), a recent annual by reputable shop/quality Mooney familiar independant A&P/or MSC, Recent Strip/Reseal or Bladders (I don't want to start this again, but you can read several posts on this site about both), then it becomes your choice of avionics/paint and interior/mods.  In my opinion, mods are the most expensive items (new cost about $1500-2000 per MPH) and they are the items that I personally am least likey to buy first, so I would want them all ready there, or just live without them.  I would then choose the paint and interior (another $12-20k to redo both).  Finally my last item would be the avionics, only because you can add them and you will generally recoup 50% of their value when/if you ever sell the plane.  The other half of the value is easily attained while flying and enjoying them.  The cost is very expensive (my complete panel overhaul was $30k for a new panel - custom fabrication, labor to create a proper T panel - moving everything around, nu lights for all instruments, a 530 W, a 330, ei fuel flow, ei ubg 16, voice annunciator, etc).  Realize no matter what panel you have it is easy to always want to add more, I am all ready looking to add an Aspen and an STEC 60-2 later this year. 

The bottom line for me is that you should first buy the best plane, then buy the best toys.  Toys are easy, but costly, to add, but fixing years of neglect in an airframe or engine will be much costlier in both the short and long run.  Also, I would consider looking at the C & G models as well (not too much of a reduction in performance for some substantial cost savings in the current marketplace).  See the posts on the G model in this vintage mooney section.

Good luck and regardless of which Mooney you choose, you will be light years ahead of a brand P, B, or C. 

Aaron

[lahso]

I echo what others have said about buying the best airframe/engine - but make it one you can afford. Initially I wanted a J model, but ended up with a C because I can afford it myself. The J would have stretched me financially. Luckily, mine had been taken care of with a pretty good panel to boot. I've been able to add to the panel, and overhaul the engine without much strain. Good luck, and keep us updated.

[Hank]

     You've probably already noticed a common theme:  get a good plane, well-maintained and regularly flown. This will prevent many surprises on your first annual. Pay for a good pre-buy at YOUR mechanic, not at the sellers! Low engine hours are nice, but for high hours the purchase price comes down with a larger overhaul expense coming sooner.

     Don't rule out a short body. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've had back-seat passengers since I bought my C-model two years ago. If you don't have children yet, it will be a long time before regular back-seat usage will become an issue.

     Especially the first couple of times, do an owner-assisted annual to learn the plane. The more you know about how it's put together and what makes things work, the better you will be able to both fly it and maintain it. Moving up from a brand C renter, this has helped me very much.

     Speed mods are nice, but many of them help more with looks than with speed, and you will not notice 3-5 mph in reduced time or fuel burn. Save them for later.

     Autopilots are also nice, but be careful to not become dependent on it working correctly. Mine does not have altitude hold, so I have to pay attention anyway. Hand fly occasionally to keep your basic skills for when you need them. So far, I have not missed having altitude on the A/P, but would feel better with it in the event my [non-pilot] wife has to make an emergency landing from the right seat. Don't pass up a perfectly good airplane because you want a better A/P.

     Same goes for the rest of the panel. Make sure it is one that you are comfortable with--I highly recommend not buying an old panel unless it has at least been rearranged into the T-configuration. Check the galleries here, you should be able to find some of the old ones. Personally, I like having two VORs to go with two Nav/Comms. DG vs. HSI is also a personal matter.

     Buy good basics--airframe, engine and panel. Add desired goodies at your own pace. Aspen looks good to me, but there's always a tradeoff--what do you give up to move the AI? 430/530 is nice, but again it's presence/absence should be reflected in the price. Check back issues of MAPALOG for approximate pricing points.

     Whatever you purchase, get good transition training, fly safe and have fun!

WAR EAGLE!

[Auburn02]

Quote: KSMooniac

I started out looking exactly like you are and thought I couldn't get into a J.  I wanted an E/F with a modern instrument layout, IFR GPS, speed mods and hopefully an autopilot.

[Auburn02]

Quote: Hank

     You've probably already noticed a common theme:  get a good plane, well-maintained and regularly flown. This will prevent many surprises on your first annual. Pay for a good pre-buy at YOUR mechanic, not at the sellers! Low engine hours are nice, but for high hours the purchase price comes down with a larger overhaul expense coming sooner.

     Don't rule out a short body. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've had back-seat passengers since I bought my C-model two years ago. If you don't have children yet, it will be a long time before regular back-seat usage will become an issue.

WAR EAGLE!

[Amelia]

I'll be surprised if the fact that you're shorter than average will make a big difference in how much you like flying this airplane.

For me, the Mooney's much-vaunted responsiveness took some getting used to after hundreds of Ye Basic Skyhawk hours, but it's addictive. Flying with fingertips and electric trim is wonderful, and all those pretty avionics are most excellent. In fact, if I climbed back in my 1975 C-172 today, I'd probably feel overwhelmed by the workload I once took for granted, having been grateful when I transitioned to it, to suddenly have two nav-coms.

Yes, Mooneys seem to have been designed, like most sports cars, with tall, thin guys in mind, but I'm living proof that you can work around that. When you go Mooney shopping, be sure and bring along supplementary seat cushions. You may find them unnecessary, but at 5'4 with proportionately short legs, I can't reach the pedals or see over the panel without a 2" cushion under me, the seat all the way forward, and another 1"-2" pillow behind me. I've often wondered if there might be rudder-pedal extensions, so my aging eyes didn't have to be quite so close to the gauges.

I've found backseat leg room is surprisingly useful, even for just two people, but that's just me, being prepared for contingencies, like the joy of being able to have others along for a comfortable ride- Angel Flight passengers, children, friends, and now grandchildren with bulky car-seats. But all that's moot if what you can comfortably afford is an older short-body.

'Comfortably afford' is important, maybe the most important consideration. Buying too fancy an airplane, and then realizing you can't fly this week because the fuel's too high, or realizing the unexpected repair job is beyond your means, is distressing.

Best of luck to you in your search. Maybe the next time I'm in Mobile, you'll have a new toy to show off!

[KSMooniac]

At 5'6" you might need to investigate the rudder pedal extensions (Mooney kit, I believe) to bring the pedals closer to the seat, and perhaps an extra seat cushion.  I'm 6'1" and long-legged and fit *perfectly* in Mooneys, and even I sometimes wish the pedals were closer to the seat so I could move my seat aft a little more.  Regardless, there are plenty of Mooney pilots of all sizes so I'm sure you can make it work!

As you mentioned, once you get into a Mooney, you'll be finding yourself using it to go on longer and longer trips.  Last month I flew to Vegas from Wichita even though we have a direct flight via airlines.  Coming back I even did a non-stop leg in just under 6 hours, with 15 gallons of gas to spare!  Last year I went to CA, and in July I'm headed to VA, FL and back.  Having an autopilot and GPS removes much of the "work" from those long legs and makes long-distance XC a breeze.  I also use mine for college football trips (Texas A&M!) and it is absolutely wonderful on those missions, even with 4 folks.  With the speed and efficiency of a Mooney, there really isn't a cheaper way to *travel* compared to other GA planes, so don't think a Cherokee or other would save you money. 

Of all the items on your wish list, I still think finding an E or F with a modern autopilot will be the most difficult since it is such an expensive upgrade relative to the airframe cost.  But, there are some out there!  Even in this market, the really good planes are still selling, even at a premium price, so when you get serious about shopping you should have your financing lined up and be ready to pounce when you find one.  If you're not a MAPA member, you should join to get access to the MAPA Log articles that include Jimmy Garrison's pricing/market reports as well as classifieds for MAPA members, which typically have the nicer Mooneys IMO.  Also, if you're thinking $50k or whatever number, go ahead and get loan quotes up to $60k or $70k...you might be surprised to see the monthly payment deltas aren't horrible, and if you do like I did you might find that buying a $60k E for example vs. a $50k one might actually get you $70-$75k worth of equipment in reality since upgrades only return 50% on the dollar.  Good luck!

[KSMooniac]

I'll add some comments to Amelia's excellent reply...great advice about getting into a plane you can "comfortably" afford.  IMO, you're already ahead of the game by looking for a Mooney as they are fast, simple, and efficient while being *relatively* easy on the budget for a traveling bird.  The design and construction is wonderful in that there aren't really many costly "gotcha" items except perhaps the wet wing fuel tanks.  This is especially true if you get a pre-J model with manual gear.  (I'm a big fan of that system.)  Compare the landing gear system with the rubber biscuit shock absorbers (well, I guess they don't absorb much) to an oleo strut like a Bonanza...the oleos are heavier and require more MX attention due to seals and air/oil filling, etc.  The controls are nicer too with pushrods throughout so you don't need to worry about cables and pulleys and turnbuckles and such...just lubrication points on the Mooney.  There aren't really any expensive nuiscance ADs either, unless you have an un-updated Hartzell prop.

If you get one that has been flown and maintained regularly, you shouldn't be in for any big surprise bills.  Getting a thorough pre-buy (or full-blown annual inspection) from a Mooney specialist is important in this regard before taking the plunge.  Getting one with some modernized avionics could also pay off with the avoidance (hopefully) of troublesome displays or other behavior on vintage radios.

Getting 16-18 NMPG sure is nice, especially when 100LL tops $5+ a gallon too.  You'll find traveling by Mooney requires less gas money than driving or flying any other plane. 

[Auburn02]

Thank you all again for your input. It's definitely given me a lot to think about. Last night I was sitting at home and convinced I needed to be looking at a J, but today I'm back to trying to find the best C/E/F I can find. No offense to the G owners, but it's just not on my list. If one came across my path that seemed like a great deal I would take a look, but I'm not going to search them out.

Quote: KSMooniac

Of all the items on your wish list, I still think finding an E or F with a modern autopilot will be the most difficult since it is such an expensive upgrade relative to the airframe cost.

[KSMooniac]

An STEC autopilot is likely the only modern one that you'll find added to a pre-J airframe.  The pre-J's typically came with the Mooney "Positive Control" system, which is a full-time, vacuum powered wing-leveler with a disconnect button on the yoke that should be pressed when maneuvering.  It is a simple system, and effective at what it does.  Optional to that was the Brittain Accu-trak autopilot, which could add options like a heading bug or a CDI tracker to control the vacuum-based system to maintain heading or course.  Brittain is still in business in Tulsa, but they're about the only ones that can competently service these old systems anymore.  Some basic trouble-shooting can be done like leak checking in the field, but Brittain is the best at getting everything working as it should.

On the Mooney email list this topic has come up time and again.  Some feel it is a waste of time and money to either install a Brittain system (it is possible to cobble together enough used/overhauled components to do so) or try to get one functioning while others have had good luck with it. 

I think, but am not sure, that some of the mid-70's pre-J models might have had options for a Century autopilot but I could be mistaken.  Century and later King autopilots were available on J and K airframes.  I have no experience with these.  The King autopilots are more capable and typically have flight director and HSI gyros...which add to the cost and complexity signficantly.  Highly unlikely you'll find such a setup in a pre-J airframe.

If you find a good candidate E with a Brittain autopilot, that is certainly better than nothing.  The PC system is a nice safety enhancer for IFR work and can reduce XC workload a bit.  Perhaps you'll find one with an INOP Brittain system, and you can use it as a negotiating point to beat on the price.  If so, then you could invest some time into trouble-shooting the system under A&P supervision if you're so inclined, and replace the vacuum lines and fittings, etc. for little money.  Worst case, perhaps you fly it to Tulsa and plan to spend a day or two letting them go through the system.  Relative to the cost of a new STEC installation, it will be tiny, but then again it might not work as well or as long as a new STEC since you're still dealing with 40+ year old electronics.  I would certainly put a little effort into one of these systems before throwing it out, but I like to tinker more than I like to write a big check. 

My J came with an STEC-30, including altitude hold and GPSS (GPS Steering).  The -30 lives inside a turn coordinator, so it is perfect for a Mooney panel without extra real estate.  The GPSS combined with WAAS is wonderful...it flies a complete flight plan including all turns, holds, procedure turns, etc. from the GPS box and leaves only the climbs/descents to be manually controlled.  Installing one of these systems today would cost $10-12k, I think.  STEC has the market cornered in the certified world, unfortunately.  A similarly capably TruTrak autopilot for experimentals can be had for half that.

GPS is a whole other topic...suffice it to say that the GNS-430(W) has become the defacto KX-170B of modern times and everyone expects to find one in a plane they want to buy today.  The -480 (old Apollo CNX-80) is discontinued but still supported by Garmin and has a cult-like following.  Most users love them and consider them better than the -430.  Older Apollo boxes like the GX-50/55/60 series are losing support so I wouldn't pay extra for a plane with one of those.  Older Garmins like the -300 are IFR enroute capable I believe, but again they're older and offer less than a 430.  If I were shopping today, I'd try to discount for anything less than a 430 or 480.  You'll just have to read up on any box when you find a plane that has something other than a 430 or 530 IMO.

[Auburn02]

One other question, hopefully not a stupid one but just more a result of not spending a ton of time around other planes/pilots. What is referred to as the "T-configuration" when it comes to the panel versus a "modern panel" versus a "standard six pack?" I understand the six instruments involved in the six pack, just not sure about the terminology/layout.

Here are a few planes that caught my attention off of a pretty quick search:

'66 M20E, all kinds of great stuff including an S-TEC 30 and bunches of 201 additions, but no IFR GPS:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/clsfdspecs/818587

'66 M20C, GNS430, lots of recent work done (i.e., both tanks resealed in last 2 years), but old Mooney/Brittain A/P. And "Annual Due July 2008?" Typo, perhaps?

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20C-MARK-21/1966-MOONEY-M20C-MARK-21/1134234.htm?guid=3D4718E2B181454C8FC610DB7D430C1B

And by far the most modified/modern (and most expensive) of the bunch, even though it's the oldest: '63 M20C, Aspen EFD, GNS430, separate HSI (could be sold since it has the Aspen?), 201 windshield, and I see A/P switches on the dash but I don't see a mention of an A/P anywhere in the ad, nor do I see anything I can identify as one on the dash. Owner is willing to trade for a 172/182, should that worry me? Too many hidden problems with this Mooney?

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20C/1963-MOONEY-M20C/1152573.htm?guid=3D4718E2B181454C8FC610DB7D430C1B

I think this is the 2nd or 3rd board I post on asking questions about various Mooneys, so if this comes across as redundant for anyone I apologize.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: KSMooniac

An STEC autopilot is likely the only modern one that you'll find added to a pre-J airframe.  The pre-J's typically came with the Mooney "Positive Control" system, which is a full-time, vacuum powered wing-leveler with a disconnect button on the yoke that should be pressed when maneuvering.  It is a simple system, and effective at what it does.  Optional to that was the Brittain Accu-trak autopilot, which could add options like a heading bug or a CDI tracker to control the vacuum-based system to maintain heading or course.  Brittain is still in business in Tulsa, but they're about the only ones that can competently service these old systems anymore.  Some basic trouble-shooting can be done like leak checking in the field, but Brittain is the best at getting everything working as it should.

My plane has the PCS with a brittan and I have no complaints.  Infact I really like the systems simplicity, reliability and functionality.  An STEC would be nice, but for extra money its just not worth the added $$.

[KSMooniac]

Here is an interesting array of F-models on the market right now:

 

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/113099/

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/116566/

 

 

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/121658/

 

 

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/119404/

Not too many attractive E's listed on ASO right now IMO.  I was surprised to see a few F's with STEC autopilots.  They were few and far between when I was searching.  The F with the Rayjay system is one I would have jumped on 3 years ago...it has been listed for quite a while and I'm surprised it hasn't moved.

[bgpilot1]

A couple of other thoughts from someone who just went through this process!

1. Don't let bad paint scare you away as long as there is no corrosion. 

2. Join AOPA and use their aircraft valuation service.  Also, they have the best loan rates and terms.

3. You can get an aircraft improvement loan above what you pay for the bird.  From what I have heard, you get the best value out of new paint & interior.  But you will probably get the most usefullness out of new avionics.  You can also sell any old avionics and consider finding a shop that subscribes to a list service rather than ebay.  You would be surprised what you can get for an ADF and antenna - I guess they still use them in Europe and South America. 

4. Know that you will have unexpected expenses.  AL charges use tax on planes, probably around 7 % of the purchase price and they will find you!  M20 models have a hub AD that adds $300 or so to the annual unless it was previously replaced within the last 2 years, I think. Fuel tanks will leak and you can fix it yourself for 1200 and 40 hours of labor stripping old sealant or pay a shop 60 plus per hour.  Buy a comfortable screwdriver for the older models - there are literally 100s of screws to remove on the belly during annaul - so I hear.

5. This is a buyers market.  You can drop at least 10% of most planes.  Get a thorough pre-buy and feel comfortable with the previous owner.  Be prepared to walk away from a deal and spend 100s of dollars in the pre-buy mode.  $500 for inspection, extra money for travel.  As you can see, there are plenty of nice people on this site who will help and answer your questions to great length.  : )

Barry

[Hank]

   I really enjoy both the PC system and my Brittain Accu-Trak. I fly the heading bug almost all the time. The previous owner fixed it up, added the heading bug and interfaced it with the 430 to fly approaches, leaving me to work the radio and control altitude. It's really nice. Although I frequently forget to press the PC disconnect button, it's pretty easy to overpower, and the extra resistance makes me unlikely to overbank in the pattern.

   Expect your flight times to decrease 1/3 to 1/2 compared to your 172. Navmonster is quoting 1 hr 17 min BFM-AUO for my C-model, so football games will be closer. With any luck, I'll make it down for a game this fall [2 hr 41 min]. Yes, I'm an alum, Engineering 1986. Been flying the Mooney since 2007, which I bought at 62 hours.

   Concentrate on a good airframe, solid maintenance history in the logs, and a modern panel. This means the standard 6-pack [top row, Airspeed, AI, Altimeter; bottom row, TC, DG, VSI]. Some of the older planes have these scattered almost randomly around the panel, mixed in with VOR's, ADF, etc. Look through the gallery here and you can probably find some, especially if Dave Morris has his A-model posted.

[eaglebkh]

Check out my photo gallery for the panel layout.  I went from a scattered arrangement to a standard "T" arrangement.  The upgrade can be expensive, but you can do it yourself if you have the patience/skills/time.

I don't have the PC wing leveler system on my plane, and I'm rather thankful.  I don't think I would like having to constantly press a button to manuever the plane, or rig up a device to hold it for me.  I went with an S-tec 30.  I believe the Brittian A/P is vacuum powered, so if you were in IMC and experienced a vacuum failure the A/P could not help you out.  The S-tec is an electric rate-based A/P, so it's not constrained to the vacuum system.  However, it would be useless in the event of an electrical failure.  Which in that case I could still use the vacuum AI for attitude control.  It's a trade-off...

I remember you requesting a demo flight at one time, correct?  I will be flying down to Gulf Shores June 4-7 if you'd like to tag up.

[Auburn02]

I remember seeing your panel pics and I definitely like that. I'm hoping to find one that someone else has already taken the liberty of upgrading, but can see it being a worthwhile benefit if I wind up with a plane that has the original panel.

Yep, that was me. Hmm, I'm fishing in a tournament that Saturday and was thinking about taking off work on Friday to do an all day instrument lesson, but maybe I could find some time to head down there. I definitely appreciate the offer and I will let you know!

[Cruiser]

Quote: Auburn02

snip......

The question is on which items do you hold fast to your list and on which do you give? I guess my list probably isn't even all that long compared to some others, but it's still proving to be quite difficult to find a plane that meets all of the criteria. For that reason I understand I might need to concede an item or two to get the others, and then look at doing them later myself. So where would you concede?

snip.......