Landing speed

[Hank]

7 hours ago, mark21m20c said:

New to mooney flying ,just trying to learn . We use to add 1/2 headwind and all of guest up to 15 kts regardless of weight in transport type aircraft. That sounds like it may be to much speed in a mooney????

I've never heard of adding the wind speed, only half of the gust factor.

So if this is you, you would add 6 for the wind plus another 12 for gusts, for a total of an extra 18 knots??? That would have me trying to flare near 85, which will not work. It is possible to fly onto the runway at that speed, but it better be long and you'll need to be careful. 

[steingar]

If it makes the OP feel better my first landing with a full airplane was way harder than I liked.  Second was fine.  You get into a groove with your landings, just have to be aware when things change up.

[MoonFlyer68]

I am very glad the OP brought this up.  I am very new to my 68 M20F with seriously less than like 20 landings so far.  Landings with the original owner were good with one having some bounce.  Landings with a CFI were good all day except for one that again had a little bounce.

Due to work left town for a few months and then went flying alone. I could not land to save my life. Luckily I am not too proud to do a go around. It was like I never landed a plane before.

Three days later I took my daughter up and had 3 perfect landings in a row. I thought maybe I finally figured it out until I flew solo to take it to annual and bounced hard again. When I get the plane back I will be doing a little more time with a CFI and then going flying a lot to get the speeds and sight picture down to an artform.  Right now, based on what I fly for work, it feels unnatural to fly in that slow or get that low to the ground.

I am just glad to know I was not crazy when I started wondering if perhaps the weight difference was possibly giving me troubles.

[Shadrach]

This is a threshold speed calculator I put together for my F model. The speeds are derived from POH Stall speeds in IAS.  The numbers are very close as verified during my last flight review.  The Vso calculation for our configuration was 49KIAS. The actual stall occurred just over 50KIAS.  I'm not suggesting these airframes are so sensitive to weight that one needs to calculate Vso for every flight...they're definitely not.  Vso varies by about  8kts (10mph) from my lightest  usable weight ( 1988lbs -me @ 180lbs and 20GAL) to  max gross (2740lbs).  What I would submit is that in general Mooney pilots approach to fast.  I would also say that 1.2Vso is a desired power off threshold speed, not a flare speed. Slow fight and power off stalls help put things into perspective.  I recently did some slow flight with just enough power to hold altitude. With 400lbs of pilot and instructor the plane was controllable. We did several course reversals at 54KIAS.   Other than heavy winds, there is little reason to ever be faster than about 70KIAS (1.3Vso) over the threshold maybe a tad faster in the 2900MGOW birds. Keep in mind that in ground effect stall is further reduced, especially in Mooneys. Even for steep short field approaches @ 1.1Vso there is still some float in ground effect.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[Bob - S50]

10 hours ago, mark21m20c said:

If you have a headwind of 15kts gust to 30kts how much speed should you add to approach speed ??? 

Lots of techniques.  Regardless of the wind, the airplane is not going to land properly until you get down to the same IAS it would land at in calm conditions.

If winds are steady but strong, I might add some speed on final just to get to the runway quicker, not for a safety factor.  Once I got close I would slow to my normal speed.

As for gusts, I might add half the gust (if I'm good enough to do that) or 5 knots as a safety factor.  But if I do that I'll have to be prepared to spend more ..time.. floating down the runway.  Because of the winds, that may not result in floating much more ..distance.. over the runway.  My normal approach speed already gives me a 30% stall margin of safety.  Using my method I would be flying 73 KIAS on final at full gross and stall speed at full gross is 55 KIAS.  That's an 18 KIAS safety margin.  And I don't know about you, but in gusty conditions I keep the minimum speed at my normal speed and let the gusts make me faster.  If I get a gust that drops me below my normal speed I add a shot of power to get me back up to normal speed.  If a gust makes me fast I just let it ride for a few seconds to see if it will come back down on its own.  If it doesn't then I'll make a ..small.. correction to get back on speed.

If the winds are that bad, I may just go someplace else, go at a different time, or not fly in the first place.  That's what preflight planning is for.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

I am very glad the OP brought this up.  I am very new to my 68 M20F with seriously less than like 20 landings so far.  Landings with the original owner were good with one having some bounce.  Landings with a CFI were good all day except for one that again had a little bounce.

Due to work left town for a few months and then went flying alone. I could not land to save my life. Luckily I am not too proud to do a go around. It was like I never landed a plane before.

Three days later I took my daughter up and had 3 perfect landings in a row. I thought maybe I finally figured it out until I flew solo to take it to annual and bounced hard again. When I get the plane back I will be doing a little more time with a CFI and then going flying a lot to get the speeds and sight picture down to an artform.  Right now, based on what I fly for work, it feels unnatural to fly in that slow or get that low to the ground.

I am just glad to know I was not crazy when I started wondering if perhaps the weight difference was possibly giving me troubles.

If it will make you feel better, as a 28 year owner of the same F model, my plane will occasionally humble me on landings. And I am not the only one. The guy next to me has 2000+ in his F model and I've seen him get humbled as well.

I think when this happens, it is usually a combination of a little complacency, a little environmental (wind), a little excess speed and a whole lot of someone putting a Voodoo curse on me.

Of course when any of us Mooney owners are at the airport with a camera, we can't help but score landings. (note the wind sock in this video. that is the "little environmental" at work. Winds were stiff but unpredictable).

 

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

If it will make you feel better, as a 28 year owner of the same F model, my plane will occasionally humble me on landings. And I am not the only one. The guy next to me has 2000+ in his F model and I've seen him get humbled as well.

I think when this happens, it is usually a combination of a little complacency, a little environmental (wind), a little excess speed and a whole lot of someone putting a Voodoo curse on me.

Of course when any of us Mooney owners are at the airport with a camera, we can't help but score landings. (note the wind sock in this video. that is the "little environmental" at work. Winds were stiff but unpredictable).

 

Forgive him father for he has sinned...Nice of you to volunteer your friend for confession!  That looks like at least 1000ft of runway behind him prior to plop...er uh touch down.  Always a challenge with crosswinds.  Not difficult to get it down safely but making it look good is a crap shoot when it's gusty, but that can be said regardless of wind direction.

[MoonFlyer68]

34 minutes ago, Marauder said:

If it will make you feel better, as a 28 year owner of the same F model, my plane will occasionally humble me on landings. And I am not the only one. The guy next to me has 2000+ in his F model and I've seen him get humbled as well.

I think when this happens, it is usually a combination of a little complacency, a little environmental (wind), a little excess speed and a whole lot of someone putting a Voodoo curse on me.

Of course when any of us Mooney owners are at the airport with a camera, we can't help but score landings. (note the wind sock in this video. that is the "little environmental" at work. Winds were stiff but unpredictable).

 

Just as in that video, that last landing I did solo when I dropped her off to annual I had some gusty winds. I floated and hunted for the ground. I read in a post somewhere that you can't tell a Mooney when to land. It will land when it's ready. My normal ride is a King Air 350. With full flaps, props in high and power leavers at idle, it will land. And with the size of the struts and tires on there it is really hard to mess it up too much.

As I said before, when the plane comes out of annual I will do a couple flights with a Mooney CFI. Then I will fly my but off until I land it right every time. This is the first plane I have ever owned and God willing, I will keep her until my end of days.

[jaylw314]

12 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I'm a geek.  I have a '78J and calculate a final approach speed for every landing.

I start with 58 KIAS for zero payload and add 1.5 knots for every 100 lbs.  So solo (200 lbs for me, stuff that's always in the plane, and my gear) and 15 gallons of gas would be 300 lbs.  3 x 1.5 = 4.5.  I would round up to 5 and add to 58 to get 63 KIAS on final.  If I were to fly with my wife, our baggage, and land with 30 gallons I might call that 700 lbs of payload.  7 x 1.5 = 10.5.  Round up to 11 and add 58 to get 69 KIAS.

Or you could just call it 65 KIAS when light and 70 when heavy.

I just call it 65 KIAS when light and 70 KIAS when heavy 

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, RZimmanck said:

Hi everyone. I have about 30 hours in an M20J and feel very comfortable landing. Most of my training and flying has been with one to two passengers and mostly full fuel on local flights. Landing at about 70K over the numbers has resulted in mostly very good landing. Today was my first time flying the plane solo. Tanks were about 3/4 full. With the exact same airspeeds I had a significant bounce that was unexpected. I was able to recover the landing without incident. This got me wondering if experienced Mooney pilots significant adjust their landing/approach speeds based on fuel on board or the amount of passengers that have on board. Any suggestions? Thanks.

All of us (well, at least speaking for myself) pride ourselves on our mad skillz at landing Mooneys, and then are periodically humbled by a "oh for crying out loud" landing.  Do not judge how you are doing based on one ugly landing.

I've seen both approach speeds of 1.2 x Vs0 and 1.3 x Vs0 suggested.  Since the Mooney is so efficient, I think 1.2 x Vs0 makes sense.  Here's an article from MAPALog about the M20J, notice his landing speeds

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J Evaluation/M20J_evaluation_report.html

I generally will land at 65 KIAS when I'm solo.  With a full load, 70KIAS, and with one passenger somewhere in between.  Even at 65 KIAS, I'll still touchdown about 800-1000 ft past my aiming point, so I've still got plenty of energy to transition to landing.

For gusts, I cheat and add about 1/4 of the gust factor instead of 1/2, to minimize floating.

[eman1200]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

 

 

see what happens when you don't get transition training folks?    you end up on an Air Safety Institute video like this one!   

[Hank]

It's a fair-to-middling video of an average Mooney pilot. Didn't find out about it for about a year, so no recollection of conditions other than what the unknown videographer indicated.

Call it a thousand foot float, well longer than my normal landings, at my obstructed 3000' former base.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

All of us (well, at least speaking for myself) pride ourselves on our mad skillz at landing Mooneys, and then are periodically humbled by a "oh for crying out loud" landing.  Do not judge how you are doing based on one ugly landing.

I've seen both approach speeds of 1.2 x Vs0 and 1.3 x Vs0 suggested.  Since the Mooney is so efficient, I think 1.2 x Vs0 makes sense.  Here's an article from MAPALog about the M20J, notice his landing speeds

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J Evaluation/M20J_evaluation_report.html

I generally will land at 65 KIAS when I'm solo.  With a full load, 70KIAS, and with one passenger somewhere in between.  Even at 65 KIAS, I'll still touchdown about 800-1000 ft past my aiming point, so I've still got plenty of energy to transition to landing.

For gusts, I cheat and add about 1/4 of the gust factor instead of 1/2, to minimize floating.

Unless you're a huge guy, 65KIAS  when solo is likely much closer to 1.3Vso, as is 70 at max gross.  However, consistency is a good thing regardless of the multiple.    For the record, me (190lbs), half tanks and 40lbs of junk in the back  puts my 1.2Vso at 57KIAS.  65KIAS may work fine for you when solo. If I used it as a rule of thumb, my landings would look like marauder's video.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

I was a little hot over the threshold here and just couldn't salvage the touchdown.

 

[jaylw314]

48 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Unless your a huge guy, 65KIAS  when solo is likely much closer to 1.3Vso, as is 70 at max gross.  However, consistency is a good thing regardless of the multiple.    For the record, me (190lbs), half tanks and 40lbs of junk in the back  puts my 1.2Vso at 57KIAS.  65KIAS may work fine for you when solo. If I used it as a rule of thumb, my landings would look like marauder's video.

Yes, 1.2Vs0 is more like 62 KIAS moderately loaded (2500) lbs in an M20J.  I wasn't intending on saying I actually use 1.2Vs0 generally, but I guess it kind of came out that way.  I'll normally use 65 KIAS moderately loaded, but I'll use the 62 KIAS when I'm using short field technique, so those are about 3-4 knots faster.   With the former, I'll touchdown about 800-1000 ft past my aim point, with 62 KIAS, it'll be more like 400-600 ft.

My home runway is 5500', and most of the other airports around here are 3000-3500' long, so I don't generally worry about running out of room.  Last week, I landed at at the shortest runway I've used so far at 2200' (Seaside, OR), with one passenger, and had plenty of room with 3-4 knots less speed

[Marauder]

I was a little hot over the threshold here and just couldn't salvage the touchdown.
 

I see the problem! You forgot to put the gear down!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Yes, 1.2Vs0 is more like 62 KIAS moderately loaded (2500) lbs in an M20J.  I wasn't intending on saying I actually use 1.2Vs0 generally, but I guess it kind of came out that way.  I'll normally use 65 KIAS moderately loaded, but I'll use the 62 KIAS when I'm using short field technique, so those are about 3-4 knots faster.   With the former, I'll touchdown about 800-1000 ft past my aim point, with 62 KIAS, it'll be more like 400-600 ft.

My home runway is 5500', and most of the other airports around here are 3000-3500' long, so I don't generally worry about running out of room.  Last week, I landed at at the shortest runway I've used so far at 2200' (Seaside, OR), with one passenger, and had plenty of room with 3-4 knots less speed

Your J is likely much better equipped than my F and therefor quite a bit heavier.  With full tanks, my wife, me and 50lbs of baggage we're still well under 2,500lbs.

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I see the problem! You forgot to put the gear down!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Hey, OT, but how did you insert that emoji?  I can only see about 20 emoji's to use on the MS interface?

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I see the problem! You forgot to put the gear down!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Damned ground effect kept it from bleeding back to gear speed...

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

Your J is likely much better equipped than my F and therefor quite a bit heavier.  With full tanks, my wife, me and 50lbs of baggage we're still well under 2,500lbs.

Yeah, we're more like 2600 lbs like that.  Unfortunately, I seem to be taking up a larger and larger proportion of that weight as time goes on 

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Yeah, we're more like 2600 lbs like that.  Unfortunately, I seem to be taking up a larger and larger proportion of that weight as time goes on 

You and me both... I gained all the baby weight during my wife's pregnancy!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[ArtVandelay]

In my last flight review I was slowing to 1.3Vso, my CFI had a fit, I cannot imagine if I tried 1.2



Tom

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

In my last flight review I was slowing to 1.3Vso, my CFI had a fit, I cannot imagine if I tried 1.2



Tom

That does not speak favorably to his confidence or competence in your airplane.  I would find a new CFI.  Did he have you do slow flight and full stall recovery?

[N201MKTurbo]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

In my last flight review I was slowing to 1.3Vso, my CFI had a fit, I cannot imagine if I tried 1.2



Tom

If he had a fit, he isn’t a Mooney CFI.

Perhaps CFIs should have type ratings.

No, we don’t need more regulations.

[Vno]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

I've never heard of adding the wind speed, only half of the gust factor.

So if this is you, you would add 6 for the wind plus another 12 for gusts, for a total of an extra 18 knots??? That would have me trying to flare near 85, which will not work. It is possible to fly onto the runway at that speed, but it better be long and you'll need to be careful. 

I think the previous poster was talking about transport category airplanes. Which are generally swept wing and have different stall characteristics then our straight wing versions.

Where I work we also have a similar gust factor addition. Ours is half of the wind speed above 20 kts OR all of the gust factor, whichever is higher. This is added to our "ref" speed which is usually 1.3 Vso. We don't add both.

So in the above example it is only the gust you would add. 12 kts. If you had a wind of 35 gust 40 it would be add 8 kts (half of 35-20) which is higher than the gust speed of 5. Granted this is all for bigger airplanes with more critical wings.

Most of the other suggestions here by other people should be spot on for our airplanes. IMHO the less speed you add will help with landings. Add enough to counteract the variable airspeed and leave it at that.

Brian