bradp Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 Anyone have good suggestions for a power supply plus trickle charger for a Concorde battery? I’d go with the battery tender type stuff, but would also like sufficiebt amperage to be able to run avionics etc in the hangar. Avionics shop has something that looks very Frankenstein ish with rheostats galore - not what I’m looking for. Anything that accomplishes a trickle charge plus has enough amperage that is can run the avionics? Quote
larryb Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 Brad: I don't believe you will find a single unit for both tasks. I use the Battery Minder for trickle charging. I use a Mean Well switching power supply for running the avionics. I used to use a cheap switching supply from Amazon intended for LED lighting but it had a ton of RF noise and would break the squelch on the radios when running. I just changed over to the Mean Well supply and it is much quieter, but it too has a little bit of noise on certain frequencies. I have a molex plug wired to the battery, through a fuse, and a mating connector on both supplies. 12 volthttps://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/709-RSP500-12 24 volthttps://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/709-RSP500-24 Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 You're looking for a "Power Supply with Battery Charger", like this one on Mouser. Puts out 40A at 12V, and has 3 stage charging for lead-acid batteries. Looks like it lists for $180, but you'll want to check that the float charge is 13.8V or less for Concords. I question whether an automatic charger like that is a good idea, though, if you want to run avionics. The changing loads could confuse the charging program and lead to unpredictable results. A better idea would be a standard DC power supply, and then hook it up to an automatic charger for the float charge when you leave it. Quote
bradp Posted January 29, 2019 Author Report Posted January 29, 2019 Yeah it sounds like the consensus is a separate power supply and battery charger is the way to go. Would seem like an unmet need - something that could flip between the two functionalities and provide a true trickle algorithm and a true constant voltage power supply... Quote
larryb Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 The problem is that the Concorde is so specific on it's charging program. It must be compensated for temperature as well. Of course, our airplane charging systems do none of this fancy stuff. But since the minder is on 24/7 and the Concorde is so expensive I just figured it was safest to buy the specified minder and not worry about it. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: You're looking for a "Power Supply with Battery Charger", like this one on Mouser. Puts out 40A at 12V, and has 3 stage charging for lead-acid batteries. Looks like it lists for $180, but you'll want to check that the float charge is 13.8V or less for Concords. I question whether an automatic charger like that is a good idea, though, if you want to run avionics. The changing loads could confuse the charging program and lead to unpredictable results. A better idea would be a standard DC power supply, and then hook it up to an automatic charger for the float charge when you leave it. This should work just fine. You will need the 15 volt model to get the correct float voltage. The 12 volt model only goes to 12.6 volts and that is too low. The 15 volt model is only good for 36 Amps. I would set the float voltage to the lowest float voltage you would expect for your temperature range. This would probably be better than a maintainer. The maintainer doesn't necessarily know what kind of battery it is hooked to. I would use a meter that is trustworthy to set the float voltage. FYI, This battery charger is meant to be the battery maintainer for backup batteries that are way more expensive then the ones we put in our planes. I used to work for the phone company and maintained a number of battery plants, some in the city and some on top of mountains. Back in the day a Telco battery charger would cost many AMUs and was mounted in a 19 inch rack. Edited January 29, 2019 by N201MKTurbo Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: This should work just fine. You will need the 15 volt model to get the correct float voltage. The 12 volt model only goes to 12.6 volts and that is too low. The 15 volt model is only good for 36 Amps. I would set the float voltage to the lowest float voltage you would expect for your temperature range. The 12v model charger actually maxes out at 14.4v and floats at 13.6v according to its datasheet, so I assume the "12v" is to identify the type of battery it's supposed to charge, not it's actual output. IIRC, 13.6v should be okay for AGM batteries even though it's listed as an SLA charger. Either way, though, not ideal if one plans on running loads on it. 31 minutes ago, larryb said: The problem is that the Concorde is so specific on it's charging program. It must be compensated for temperature as well. Of course, our airplane charging systems do none of this fancy stuff. But since the minder is on 24/7 and the Concorde is so expensive I just figured it was safest to buy the specified minder and not worry about it. AGM's are most sensitive in terms of continuous charging at 14.4v. This will result in venting of gas and thus loss of electrolyte. The gas production can also cause overheating. On the other hand, this is usually only a factor if it's done for more than just a few hours, like the duration of most flights. AGM's also are supposed to lose charge slower than other batteries during disuse (maybe 5% per month, faster if it's warm out). So if you just want to keep your battery topped off, you have three options: Fly more than once a month Use a typical automatic battery charger once a month for a couple hours Use a float charger continuously Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: The 12v model charger actually maxes out at 14.4v and floats at 13.6v according to its datasheet, so I assume the "12v" is to identify the type of battery it's supposed to charge, not it's actual output. IIRC, 13.6v should be okay for AGM batteries even though it's listed as an SLA charger. Either way, though, not ideal if one plans on running loads on it. I don't know what datasheet you are reading, the one below clearly states the adjustment range for the 12V model is 10.2 to 12.6. Are you reading some other datasheet? https://meanwellusa.com/productPdf.aspx?i=473#1 Quote
steingar Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 I suspect that batteries are batteries, they all use roughly the same chemistry. I used a cheap better tender I got at a motorcycle store for my Cherokee for many years with no issue at all. I've been using the same thing on the Mooney for about 3, again no issues. The airplane is always ready to go when want it. I had to replace the battery about one year into ownership and haven't had to touch it since (of course, that's only two years. A mechanic told me they're only supposed to be good for three, which sounds about right. I think I had 6 on my Cherokee battery when I sold it). I doubt mine would run your avionics. I can't think of a battery tender the would, though there probably is one for lots of dollars. Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 29, 2019 Report Posted January 29, 2019 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: I don't know what datasheet you are reading, the one below clearly states the adjustment range for the 12V model is 10.2 to 12.6. Are you reading some other datasheet? https://meanwellusa.com/productPdf.aspx?i=473#1 Ah, sorry, that page has datasheets for both the battery charger models (600C) and the standalone DC power supply (600) models. I was looking at the charger model datasheet. I'm behind a firewall right now and have a tough time with the links, so I can't double check it now. Here's the one I was looking at https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/260/HEP-600C-SPEC-1291200.pdf Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, jaylw314 said: Ah, sorry, that page has datasheets for both the battery charger models (600C) and the standalone DC power supply (600) models. I was looking at the charger model datasheet. I'm behind a firewall right now and have a tough time with the links, so I can't double check it now. Here's the one I was looking at https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/260/HEP-600C-SPEC-1291200.pdf That makes a lot more sense. It still leaves a lot to the imagination. It states float voltage and boost (equalize) voltage, but it says it is adjustable. If you adjust the float voltage does the boost voltage change too? Actually, the profile looks pretty benign. The boost voltage only lasts for a short time. Doing that periodically is good for the battery. I wouldn't leave it that high for an extended period, but it doesn't. I think the 600 series without the three stage charge profile would be a better choice for what people are looking for. They could just set it to their desired float voltage and leave it connected forever. It wouldn't charge a dead battery as fast as the 600C, but that is not what people are looking for. It would keep the battery topped off and supply enough power to run their avionics. Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: That makes a lot more sense. It still leaves a lot to the imagination. It states float voltage and boost (equalize) voltage, but it says it is adjustable. If you adjust the float voltage does the boost voltage change too? Actually, the profile looks pretty benign. The boost voltage only lasts for a short time. Doing that periodically is good for the battery. I wouldn't leave it that high for an extended period, but it doesn't. I think the 600 series without the three stage charge profile would be a better choice for what people are looking for. They could just set it to their desired float voltage and leave it connected forever. It wouldn't charge a dead battery as fast as the 600C, but that is not what people are looking for. It would keep the battery topped off and supply enough power to run their avionics. True, but the gotcha would be making sure you turned down the control to exactly 13.6V with the little pot on the power supply--you'd have to check the voltage with a meter each time you changed it. Again, that goes back to the whole "just get a separate float charger or charge it once a month" thing Quote
larryb Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 Here is the temperature compensated data from the Battery Minder manual. S5 is the model for the Concorde. It has lower float voltages than the other models. If I were using the HEP-600C I'd set the float voltage to 13.1. I don't see any float voltage adjustment in the HEP-600C data sheet though. Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, larryb said: Here is the temperature compensated data from the Battery Minder manual. S5 is the model for the Concorde. It has lower float voltages than the other models. If I were using the HEP-600C I'd set the float voltage to 13.1. I don't see any float voltage adjustment in the HEP-600C data sheet though. Apparently, there's a pot on the top that you can use to adjust the output voltage. Presumably, it adjusts both the constant-voltage ("boost") and float voltage. There's no meter, though, so you'd need to adjust and check with a voltmeter. Quote
PT20J Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 I have a Battery Minder and run my avionics in the hanger and it works fine. Quote
M20JFlyer Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 Just Asking, Does anyone have a comment about the Battery Minder (( de➖Sulfunator )) feature. I have been using the Concorde compatable Battery Minder for last ten years on what has now become a Concorde $600.00 24 volt AGM batterY. MY last battery I retired at six years..not that it gave up thee ghost..just that didn’t want a failure On the road. i seldom EXPERINCE more than 10 ~ 14 days without a 1 hour flight. The question is: Is desulfation a myth or a good method to increase battery life ?? Quote
jaylw314 Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, M20JFlyer said: Just Asking, Does anyone have a comment about the Battery Minder (( de➖Sulfunator )) feature. I have been using the Concorde compatable Battery Minder for last ten years on what has now become a Concorde $600.00 24 volt AGM batterY. MY last battery I retired at six years..not that it gave up thee ghost..just that didn’t want a failure On the road. i seldom EXPERINCE more than 10 ~ 14 days without a 1 hour flight. The question is: Is desulfation a myth or a good method to increase battery life ?? Ugh, desulfation is pretty controversial from what I've read. Some people swear by it, but I didn't find much solid evidence that it helps. My understanding is, sulfation is more of an issue with batteries that get deeply discharged, so if your battery is charged that often, it's probably not your biggest problem. Quote
steingar Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 Yeah, I don’t quite get this. Keep the battery topped up, come in and play with boxes, when you’re done the battery tender does it’s thing and tops off the battery. I guess if you HAVE to play ith you boxes and then immediately fly to Saskatchewan, then you have a problem. I usually want to play with avionics on days I’m not flying, but maybe that’s just me. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 31, 2019 Report Posted January 31, 2019 The BatteryMinder is a pretty heavy device compared to an ordinary battery tender for the car... Check to see what it’s max output is to see if it matches the current you are using for instrument panel practice.... Expect that you can use it for a while without running the battery down... simple math probably... I have used mine quite a bit to power my panel, but it wasn’t hours at a time... it also was powering the vacuum pump in the tail... giving everything some exercise for a few minutes... sulfonation is real. But, if you got your Concorde battery to go six years and it passed its capacity test... sulfonation wasn’t a problem... Sulfonation is a chemical build up that occurs on the battery plates... as it grows in dimensions the plates can get shorted out... the build up isn’t always even... the ebbing isn’t even either... The problem is like Losing a cell. So, does desulfonation make a BatteryMinder better? What makes a BatteryMinder so good is it’s ability to charge a specific battery in a specific way... while you are away, for an unknown amount of time, no matter what the temperaure is... and it does that other maintenance step too... Since there is no way to visually inspect the plates of sealed battery... how would you know? I’m going on year three? with a set of concordes.... farther than I have ever gone with a pair of gills and its specific battery charger... Dollar for dollar, similar in price... swapping out a gill battery every year is pretty annoying (two battery system)... buying a gill battery charger didn’t seem to do a thing for the gill battery longevity... Take your pick... Keep it simple if you can... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote
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